Bleachgate

10 Aug

Hello everyone. This is a text adaptation of my video which you can find here: http://twitvid.com/Z7TOH

Today, I am going to write about Crohn’s Forum.com and what went down on Monday and Tuesday of this week.

I’ll start by giving a brief background to Crohn’s Forum. It’s a support forum for those who suffer from Crohn’s disease. It’s a very active forum with lots of members.

I signed up a few months ago, just after I was diagnosed with Crohn’s. I was looking for a support forum, a community of people with same illness as me and some, on the same meds as me.

I was warmly welcomed by the people on the forum. People sent their apologies and condolences for my diagnosis. etc.

I was never an overtly active member. I popped back every now and then to see what was going on, or if I had a problem/question, I’d post it. e.g. insomnia, dealing with other prednisolone side effects/other Crohn’s symptoms. Another thing I’d do is read someone’s stem cell treatment blog, which I found very interesting.

All the while, I noticed there was a lot of alternative medicine pushers/believers on the forum. One thing I noticed was Miracle Mineral Solution. I joined this forum before I became active skeptic. I was skeptical of this product, but at the time didn’t do anything about it.

Yesterday, however, I started thinking about Crohn’s Forum and the alternative nonsense going on. I remembered this Miracle Mineral Solution and so decided to Google it. What I found was shocking to me.

First off, I found an FDA safety bulletin posted on 30th July 2010. From the FDA page which can be found here, I learned that MMS was an industrial bleach, when made up as according to the instructions. It produces chlorine dioxide, which is used for stripping textiles and industrial water treatment. I’ll come back to the FDA warning in a minute. After learning what it actually is, I went to the official MMS website. It is utterly disgusting. It claims that MMS is a cure for AIDS, cancers, hepatitis A, B and C, malaria, herpes and tuberculosis. This started my alarm bells ringing. The website screams DANGEROUS WOO to me.

So, the website also tells people how to take it. Basically, after making it up, you take a few drops of it. You judge if you’re getting better by how nauseous you feel after taking it. Seriously.

I’m not going to go into the pseudoscientific nonsense behind it, because frankly, it’s a waste of time. I will however summarize it. The website claims MMS helps the body to identify toxins and that it helps remove said toxins. Removal of these toxins causes nausea. So, how might one explain that it also causes nausea in well people? Of course, it’s cleaning up past infections or other illnesses being “mopped up”. Yeah… Right…

So, back to the FDA warning. It’s fairly straightforward. It states the problem with MMS, that it’s an industrial bleach. Drinking bleach is very obviously dangerous and has effects such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea and symptoms of severe dehydration. It then goes on to mention how MMS makes unfounded claims of efficacy with regard to its long list of alleged cures. The FDA also notes how people might self treat and refuse conventional medicine and how this is dangerous. Finally, it recommends people stop using it and throw it out.

Seeing this, knowing that people on Crohn’s Forum use it, I thought “Damn, this is bad. I should warn them”. After checking to see if anyone had mentioned it before, I started a thread on Crohn’s Forum saying very simply, “Warning: Miracle Mineral Solution is dangerous.” I Implored people using it to stop and posted link to FDA warning. The first reply? “Wowza”. I thought, “Phew, thank goodness. If anything, that’s one person informed.” However, the thread quickly took a very different route. The second reply? “Oh but you neglect to warn about Remicade’s side effects!” They then gave a long list of Remicade’s side effects, both common and rare, which, yes, include reactivation of TB and various lymphomas (rare side effects, for anyone interested) However, in my initial post, I made no mention of conventional medicine. Their posting was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. An ad hominem attack on conventional medicine, if I ever saw one.

Next up, a user named D Bergy, starts ranting about how chlorine is used in various pharmaceuticals and industrial water treatment. Again, completely irrelevant to the fact that drinking pure industrial bleach is dangerous. He then goes on to say about how big pharma won’t sponsor studies into things like chlorine dioxide and Low Dose Naltrexone (another forte of D Bergy) because the cost of a medical trial would offset any profit from a generic drug, because it can’t be patented. OK, fair point. Still, it doesn’t mean they should be blindly accepted and used without assessing safety. He also starts trying to counter a point I made in an earlier post that anecdotes aren’t evidence when it comes to medicine. He used a metaphor, saying “I wouldn’t look for double blinded trials when looking for a car, I’d ask my friends for advice.” I rubbished this, saying it’s hardly the same as a using a medical treatment which could easily kill or damage you.

I then called him out on a post where I’d seen him giving out dangerous, unqualified medical advice to someone wanting to start to take Miracle Mineral Solution. This person, before starting taking MMS, had a bad throat. It was about to get much, much worse.

D Bergy posted in the person’s thread, and I’m paraphrasing here, “Oh, don’t worry, that’s fine. You can still take MMS” Hmm… Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me. So, the person starts taking MMS and unsurprisingly, their throat gets worse. They post, getting concerned. D Bergy tells them it’s all normal and to keep taking the MMS. This person, stupidly, carries on. The next post I see from them says “I can hardly swallow my own spit”. D Bergy, yet again, tells them it’s normal and to carry on. This kind of unqualified medical advice is clearly dangerous. The person was probably suffering oesophageal burning due to drinking and gargling bleach, and was at risk of oesophageal collapse.

Back in my warning thread, D Bergy told me that I had falsified this claim, that he was handing out dangerous, unqualified medical advice. In response, I posted a number of quotes from the thread backing up my claim. He replies saying “You’ve taken that out of context!” I tell him I haven’t and he shuffles off. How I could’ve taken the quotes out of context is beyond me. I, correctly, claimed he was giving out dangerous, unqualified medical advice. I posted quotes with him giving out dangerous, unqualified medical advice. Nothing taken out of context. This calling out of a prominent member got a number of people angry and riled. I was also told by various users “Oh, well people have differing opinions on things. Judging peoples’ choice of treatment is wrong. No one in the thread was wrong. This is a support forum.” I was also told to stop slandering people. Something I had not once done in the thread. Another user then posted in the thread saying “I don’t mind this thread, so long as it’s respectful discussion going on.” I thought this might be a turning point in the thread, and we might actually get down to discussing Miracle Mineral Solution. Oh, how wrong I was. Instead, when I said I agreed with the respectful discussion, I was told it was told to “drop it” as it was neither the time nor the place to be discussing a) Whether D Bergy was a danger and b) Whether MMS was a danger. I made a posting saying I disagreed. It’s a treatment forum, therefore it’s the perfect place to discuss what some think is a treatment, and it’s 10 days after the FDA announcement, therefore it’s also the perfect time to discuss it, especially considering not everyone had heard the news before.

It was at this point that I started receiving abusive personal messages. A user known as Cackman888 sent me lots of PM’s calling me all sorts of nasty names. He also posted some of them in the thread. Back in the thread, I called for the name calling to stop and to start some rational discussion. These calls were both ignored. Instead, the name calling continued both in PM’s and the thread, with Cackman888 calling for me to be banned. He claimed I made out I knew everything about Crohn’s, something I never have and never would do. I do not and will not ever know everything about Crohn’s. Other people then started posting their negative conventional medicine anecdotes in the thread. It was quickly collapsing around me. I was also told that D Bergy had given great advice in the past and he’d been a member for years, and as such, it was wrong of me to criticise him. I was criticised for taking the scientific viewpoint. I decided “Right, that’s it. time to abandon ship.”

I started another thread entitled Anti-Skepticism. I’ve lost the exact wording of it, since the thread was deleted, so I’ll rely on memory. Basically, I started off saying how disgusted I was at the response to the warning thread. I told them that if anything, they should be more skeptical of potential treatments, given that they’re at a higher risk for snake oil peddlers to peddle them something. I once again questioned that it was not the time nor place to discuss MMS. I then called for negative alternative medicine anecdotes, something you never hear unless asked for. Sadly, this thread didn’t turn out the way I intended. Instead of actually sparking discussion, I was told that I’d interpreted the “neither the time nor place” thing wrong. Someone also posted telling me they trusted people on forums more than scientific evidence as “science has been proven wrong before”. The only logical post in the thread was from intermanaut summarising why people turn to alternative medicine. After all that, some more posts had been made in Miracle Mineral Solution thread. The discussion had sadly; well sort of sadly, turned to homeopathy. I flexed my knuckles and got down to answering the post. They told me they’d used homeopathy on their horse and that horses couldn’t possible have the placebo effect. I sent them a link to Science Based Medicine.org’s take on the matter and pointed out that animals can exhibit the placebo. They also said about how they hoped they could use alternative medicine to treat their son’s Crohn’s forever and that I’d be open minded to try it. I replied “Thanks, but no thanks. I rely on science based medicine”

Finally though, a senior member took notice of this thread and, to summarize, he told people to calm down. He said to them not to take the thread as a personal attack and that my opinions also shouldn’t be mocked – a very good point. Here, he was pointing out the irony of the alties criticising my opinion of alternative medicine and then saying “Don’t criticise our opinions”. He summed up my post excellently and then said “He was offering this alternative viewpoint on your alternative viewpoint.” He also said how he was appalled that there were calls to ban me, simply because I was looking out for people’s wellfare by posting this news about MMS. Huzzah! Someone with a bit of sense. This didn’t, however, stop the mods deleting both my threads.

I received a stern telling off by PM from a mod, saying I’d have a two week ban if I posted any more posts which upset people. I replied to this PM saying “If people get upset hearing that their favourite quackery has been banned by the FDA for being a danger, you should be contacting them telling them to grow up.” A number of different members started going round my previous posts where I’d criticised alternative medicine. Again, the replies were all “This is a support forum. How dare you ask for scientific proof to back up peoples claims! That’s antagonistic behaviour! Don’t criticise or question people’s choice of medication. How would you like it if people criticised your choice?” to which I responded “I wouldn’t care. I’m not married to azathioprine or prednisolone AND I have scientific proof backing up my choice. What do these people have? Nothing. And yet they get upset when I repost anything critical of their choice, even if it wasn’t me who posted it originally!”

At this point, I left it, as I was sick of arguing with people who clearly were not listening to anything I had to say, and were going through previous posts of mine looking to antagonise me.

So, this morning, I receive a PM quoting where I’d said “I upset people by pointing out they’re using fraudulent, even dangerous so called medicine? It’s them you should be writing to not me.” and a response to this quote, telling me it was my attitude which is upsetting and would not be tolerated. I was, at this point, banned for 10 days.

Make of it what you will. To me, it suggests that they want to silence debate. It appears a great number of the people who make up Crohn’s forum are in love with so called alternative medicines. What I don’t get, is how Cackman888 wasn’t banned. I was not being inflammatory at all with any of my posts, even when calling out D Bergy. He simply screamed at me to get off the forum and called me a number of derogatory words. I thought the people posting in the threads asked for respectful discussion. Why were they not telling Cackman888 to calm down and stop being offensive? Also, where is the ban, or at least warning, for D Bergy? He was clearly giving out dangerous, unqualified medical advice that someone was taking as if he was a medical professional. Clearly, it’s one rule for them and one rule for everyone else.

I was ostracised from the community, merely for asking for proof of a potential treatment and posting the dangers of another. It’s ridiculous. They’re willingly keeping themselves and, more dangerously, others ignorant, by deleting posts like mine.

So, what can we do to tackle the kind of problems demonstrated on Crohn’s forum?

Well, I don’t know. Some people have suggested that you sign up and start a guerrilla campaign from the inside. I can’t personally help with this at the moment, as I was not just userbanned, but IP banned from the forum. I’m sure that by building the number of skeptics active on Crohn’s forum will help in future discussions, however. The snake oil users already have numbers, which is why they can so quickly take over and take down any threads which go against their illogical, antiscientific beliefs. I think that one major problem is that a number of the mods of Crohn’s forum are also of the delusion that debate about these products is bad.

However, even though it appears all bad, at least the people who read the thread are now more informed. At least those who took the time to make note of the thread can make a more informed decision about their health and use of products. If they choose to ignore this advice, on their own head be it.

I suppose one more good thing that can come of all this, however, is knowing that the FDA are going to start prosecuting those who sell or advertise Miracle Mineral Solution. In the statement made to the press on their website they say “The FDA continues to investigate and may pursue civil or criminal enforcement actions as appropriate to protect the public from this potentially dangerous product.”

What would also be good, in my eyes at least, is if it were possible to prosecute those selling and advertising MMS under UK law, as the Cancer Act of 1939 states that no-one may claim to have cured cancer, which websites relating to Miracle Mineral Solution have done so.

So, that just about wraps up my first real blog post.

Any response to it, whether it be on twitter (@rhysmorgan) or in the comments, would be much appreciated. If you want to email me, don’t hesitate to ask me for my email address too!

Also, noticed any mistakes? Please let me know! Thanks.

- Rhys

501 Responses to “Bleachgate”

  1. Alice August 10, 2010 at 11:40 pm #

    Rhys, I had been putting off watching that video until I was awake, but I opened this blogpost and was riveted by horror and by admiration of your brave, calm, concerned and very reasonable stance! I hadn’t realised how ghastly MMS was – how can people drink bleach? I hope this person with the sore throat doesn’t actually die of it.

    “Respecting opinions” is all very well academically and socially, but as you say, it’s a forum about treatment. Isn’t it interesting how they’re so quick to accuse skeptics of being in the pay of Big Pharma, given this kind of thing?

    I moderate a large forum and am often told it’s the most friendly place on the Internet. Fortunately my subject is less emotive than medication, so I have an easier ride. But the first things that lead to bans are not challenging people’s opinions, but things like insults and name-calling. I also sometimes have to say “Sorry, but no matter how strongly you feel, this is what the science says” and indeed challenge people to search for as many facts as possible and write about them as clearly as they can. So I think you can guess my opinion of the moderators on that forum!

    A shocking read – may I summarise this on my own blog and, of course, provide a link to you?

    Congratulations on your soaring into the skeptic world, and looking forward to meeting you at Cardiff Skeptics!

    • Rhys Morgan August 10, 2010 at 11:51 pm #

      Thank you for your kind words :)
      Yes, please feel free to summarise and link. I’d be very grateful!
      I look forward to meeting you too!

    • Scott August 11, 2010 at 10:05 pm #

      Notice that EVERY time you are required to “respect a belief” it always is in reference to imaginary things?

      • Enkidu October 18, 2010 at 10:10 pm #

        Of course! I don’t ask people to respect my beliefs, I ask them to look at my evidence. If they don’t have any evidence, what else can they do?

  2. Jo Brodie August 10, 2010 at 11:59 pm #

    Hi Rhys

    I think this may be your original post on ‘Anti-skepticism’ – I used Google’s cache to call it up (by searching for Crohn’s anti-skepticism) and then used FreezePage to ‘trap’ the page. If the page has been deleted then eventually the Google cache will disappear too.

    Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:G6kgJrfsWO0J:www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D12250+crohn%27s+anti-skepticism&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

    FreezePage version: http://www.freezepage.com/1281483604DFIWWBDCWF

    The FreezePage link won’t last forever (I’m using the free account which means I’d have to log in every 30 days to stop it being deleted) – if you want to save it more permanently you may need to create your own account and save it yourself. (Obviously you can save the text by copying and pasting it etc).

    Secondly, have a look at some of the tweets @DRstarT has posted about the use of the term ‘bleach’. I suppose ‘we’ (skeptics) need to be careful not to be too alarmist over how we talk about the type of bleach that is generated by the ‘activation’ of MMS. The FDA implies that a form of bleach is generated which, if taken in high doses (as the MMS people seem to recommend) is A VERY BAD IDEA however as @DRstarT says (paraphrased) ‘it’s not quite the same as drinking Domestos’. Still, it’s undeniably nasty stuff to be taking orally!

    I think you may well have been treated unfairly – obviously I’ve not read all the posts or seen both sides. It will be interesting to see what happens next when your ban is removed next week.

  3. Kuly August 11, 2010 at 12:33 am #

    Rhys,

    I am a science writer, so naturally I applaud anyone who fights pseudoscience, quackery and illogical thinking. I was shocked reading this post – were it not for the endangerment of people’s lives, and the cowardly (but sadly inevitable) personal attacks against yourself, then the whole thing would be comical.

    Unfortunately (as you discovered) human stupidity and delusion are in no short supply. In fact, if they were types of fuel, we would have colonised our neighbouring star systems!

    You should be very proud that a cool-headed young man of your intelligence made a stand, especially against a hot-headed, bile-filled backlash characterised by monumental stupidity. Also know that there are others in the world who are just as appalled by these things as you are.

  4. twinarp August 11, 2010 at 1:01 am #

    Rhys, you little champ. You are awarded an additional ‘o’, not WonderBoy ™ any more. Now WonderBoyo ™
    Keep up the good work little mate.
    “Science is not a democracy, enough votes for a result don NOT make it true”

  5. Pia August 11, 2010 at 1:37 am #

    Rhys, most adults don’t question things like this, much less people of your age. I applaud you for taking not only the time to post about this, but to thoroughly research it. Have you considered creating your own message board that would allow for both sides of arguments like this to be heard?

    As someone who worked for quite a few years in medical in the US, I’ve seen many people take sides without accurately knowing anything about the treatments available to them. Sadly, those that acted that way towards you will probably never be swayed because they see only what they want to see.

    • Rhys Morgan August 11, 2010 at 1:41 am #

      Yes, I have been considering it since this all happened.
      It’s worrying to see how a support forum can so quickly show how deeply rooted in alternative medicine it is.

      • Dirk October 20, 2010 at 9:05 pm #

        Have found “support forums” to be full of people who will not be the ones getting well. Those who heal are out living life to the fullest rather than spending time at a pity party. Whether they go with mainstream medicine or alternative makes zero difference in my experience because the mentality is exactly the same. The healed ones are walking alone ….

  6. Heather August 11, 2010 at 7:34 am #

    Firstly well done for taking such a stance on this forum. Do you know who runs this forum? Are there any other crohn’s forums (maybe linked to NHS) that could be used to help back you up? Could you approach respected doctors in this area to back you up? Forum moderators surely have a responsibility (especially where people’s health is at stake). There will be many people on twitter who could help so keep publicising.

  7. Press Not Sorry August 11, 2010 at 12:56 pm #

    Well done, Rhys, for standing your ground. Science-based medicine may have side effects, but these are known about and included in the information that comes with the medicine, which will have undergone a great deal of testing before being made available to patients.

    I feel that D Bergy, in particular, is a danger to public health, and your proposition “to prosecute those selling and advertising MMS under UK law” should also be applied to him/her. It will be qualified doctors who will be treating the results of his/her unqualified advice.

  8. blair August 11, 2010 at 2:47 pm #

    That isn’t a “support” website, it’s a street gang populated and ruled by ignorami.

    D Bergy was dispensing medical advice without a license; and he was advising someone to drink poison; and he repeated that crime despite indications it was causing harm. The police should get involved and he should be charged wtih multiple criminal counts.

    The moderators of the website and everyone else there owe you an apology and their gratitude for pointing out the danger of that substance and the danger of unfounded medical claims in general.

  9. Elgan August 11, 2010 at 3:37 pm #

    use a proxy ( eg http://www.torproject.org ) to disguise you ip and let rip ;)

  10. Zeno August 11, 2010 at 4:16 pm #

    Welcome to the blogosphere, Rhys!

    And what an entrance…

    I have a Freezepage account and I’ve cached the offending page here, so it won’t get lost.

    However, I thoroughly recommend you at least sign up for a free Freezepage account of your own – you’ll find it very useful!

    Keep up the good work.

    • Rhys Morgan August 11, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

      Thanks Zeno,
      I have signed up and have it saved in my pagefreeze account now :)

  11. Thomas August 11, 2010 at 4:47 pm #

    Who is behind the forum? Is this astroturfing or ignorance. Your points seemed reasonable and no forum I’ve ever been on has tolerated abuse. Cackman888 should be banned for at least a year.

    I’ve come across a number of ‘independent’ sites created by companies keen to push a product.

  12. Chris August 11, 2010 at 6:47 pm #

    Good on you, Rhys! Unfortunately many of these “support” forums are echo chambers where dissent is frowned upon.

    Something I am too familiar with. Over ten years ago I joined for my son’s disability. I quit after the backlash from those who were pushing alternative medicine, including a very dangerous practice known as chelation, after I sent a message about titled “Bad Idea.”

    Then about a week later a five year old boy from the UK was killed in quack doctor’s office from chelation. The clinic was very close to where the list owner and moderator lived.

    Here is a post I wrote about my frustration on a forum I visit about once a day:
    http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1171061#post1171061

    • Pernille Nylehn October 6, 2010 at 9:30 am #

      Hi Chris: What is “chelation therapy”?

      (and why do all the quacks use chemical terms when they obviously don’t know what they mean, and even when explained what they mean won’t accept it, because they have a different “interpretation”? How can chelation be interpreted any other way than strictly chemical?).

      Pernille Nylehn
      MD, GP, Norway

      • Travis October 7, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

        Chelation therapy is a therapy which is supposed to mop up metals from the patient, usually heavy and toxic metals like mercury, lead and cadmium.

        (Chelates in chemistry are cage shaped organometallic compounds with an extremely high affinity to form coordination complexes with certain metals. As such they can be useful where heavy metal poisoning is a problem.)

        I’ll take an educated guess and suggest that the disability being referred to here is Autism and the chelation therapy is related to the widespread belief that autism is caused by the mercury preservative used in some immunisation shots. This is a common quack remedy, people think that Autism is not only caused by this mercury (there is no hard evidence that this is the case), but that it is a reversible condition which can be cured by mopping up this mercury from the body. (That also is not supported by any evidence.)

        The fact that autism rates have been completely unaffected by the withdrawal from use of mercury preservatives and autism is not known to be higher in populations with high environmental exposure to mercury have done little to dissuade people from believing in that stuff.

      • Roland Smith October 18, 2010 at 7:16 pm #

        Read the English wikipedia article on chelation therapy, and click through to the pages describing the compounds used in it.

        E.g. dimercaprol is toxic, EDTA is a persistant pollutant, while penicillamine is also an immunosurpressant.

        Not something I would voluntarily take _unless_ I had a severe heavy metal poisoning, and the cure is slightly better than the alternative.

  13. Rachel O. August 11, 2010 at 7:01 pm #

    I am truly sorry to “hear” of the truly appalling behavior you experienced on the Crohns Forums.

    On the playground, in the home, in the workplace, and (now) online the typical response from authority figures is “whoever cries the loudest is the one who was wronged, the other party obviously did something bad.” This seems to be a shining example of that. You were rational and reasonable, but since when the authority figures showed up so many were crying their eyeballs out they immediately went to punish you. It’s a, “they’re crying, you must’ve done something bad, you’re grounded” response. It sucks and I hate it, but it happens.

    I support you. It sounds like you did a great job. Your post is very respectful and informative. You are very good writer – very well thought-out. I’m proud to “know” you.

    My dad was diagnosed with Chrohns about 13 years ago now and has been living virtually symptom free through careful diet choices. I know about the struggle to find what works for you and how everyone tries to “help.” It can be hard. You have a good head on your shoulders and I know you’ll be fine.

    Best of luck in everything.

  14. Michael August 11, 2010 at 7:55 pm #

    Rhys

    You are doing a wonderful job.

    If you get the chance, you might want to ask the nasty people on Crohn’s Forum.com why they would prefer convenient lies about safety and effectiveness to inconvenient truths about hazards and frauds, and why they think that shooting the messenger would make the message go away.

    I am looking forward to your next real blog post.

  15. Machupiku August 11, 2010 at 9:38 pm #

    Wow! Found your video blog via Ben goldacres tweets which got me here. So heartening to come across the next gen. of skeptics! I only hope some of the kids I teach turn out so well.

  16. ashleyfmiller August 11, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    Excellent post, I linked to you from my page.

    As difficult as it is to have a chronic condition, dealing with people who don’t seem to know much constantly trying to give you advice based on superstition and nonsense has always been one of the more trying aspects in my own life.

    • Rhys Morgan August 12, 2010 at 12:17 am #

      I read your brilliant blog post. Thanks for spreading this!
      It actually offends me when people try to shovel nonsense to me. It’s like “Do you really think I’m that stupid that I’ll gargle bleach?!”

  17. blackwatertown August 11, 2010 at 11:50 pm #

    Fascinating post. Good crusading by you. If you don’t already know about Ben Goldacre, you should look up his blog http://www.badscience.net where he challenges and debunks left right and centre. I’d imagine that he would be interested in your work on this.
    Cheers.
    http://www.blackwatertown.wordpress.com

    • Rhys Morgan August 12, 2010 at 12:16 am #

      Thanks for the support!
      Ben Goldacre is actually already aware of my tweeting and work. He retweeted a link to the video, earlier on :P
      I’ve also almost finished reading Bad Science, the book. Brilliant read. Can’t recommend it enough!

  18. Michael Dickens August 12, 2010 at 4:24 am #

    I do think you deserve some acknowledgment for your support of science, and you’re totally right that drinking bleach is dangerous. However, I’d like to point out that people are never unbiased judges of whether they’re being polite or not. Your “Anti-Skepticism” topic seems a bit flippant.

    “It seems rather odd. I thought people would be more skeptical, considering almost everyone here has a diagnosed illness that quacks love to flout miracle cures for. I assumed that you’d all be on your guard more.
    I guess I just assumed wrong.”

    If this comment was directed at me, I’d be rather annoyed. All the commenters in your post seem polite enough; I know I don’t have the whole story because this is only one post, but I do think you could have been more polite about it. You certainly could have been a lot more rude, but you may have gotten a better response if you had left out the sarcasm. (Maybe not, but it’s worth a try.)

    • Draken August 12, 2010 at 7:57 pm #

      Annoyed? Why? It’s a perfectly polite statement, not singling out any particular person, not calling someone names, but simply stating an observation.

      Of course there may be readers who’d rather have the message wrapped up in velvet smelling of strawberries, so we can all remain one fluffy, happy family even if some of us have been misled into a suffering throat hemorrhage.

    • Rhys Morgan August 12, 2010 at 8:04 pm #

      The point of that comment was not to be rude. It was an observation:
      Due to having a chronic illness, snake oil salesmen are more likely to offer them their snake oil.
      Therefore, they should try to be more skeptical about things rather than accepting everything at face value.

      • Michael Dickens August 12, 2010 at 10:05 pm #

        I know you weren’t trying to be rude. But it could be construed that way, most obviously the part that I quoted. You are right about the need for skepticism, of course.

  19. Michael Dickens August 12, 2010 at 4:32 am #

    P.S. The post where D Bergy convinces someone to take MMS is here: http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=9829 It is clear that MMS is making the problem much worse (not that that was ever in doubt).

  20. Kez August 14, 2010 at 7:27 pm #

    Well Done Rhys for not letting them shout you down. The main reason i don’t spend much time on Crohn’s forums is the amount of times I am told to try some ridiculous diet or alternative cure …and the fact that these things always say cure, as if it is going to take my Crohn’s away and make it never return. I understand that they need hope that one day this might happen, but false hope is worse than none at all. It is unbelievable the things that people will try.

    A good thing that has come from this is that it has raised awareness of Crohn’s (on Twitter at least) I have noticed that a few people have tweeted that they looked it up after reading about “bleachgate”, and a couple of people have said about how they didn’t understand what Crohn’s was before and thought it was just like IBS. Awareness and understanding – especially about a disease like Crohns with so much potential for misunderstanding and embarrassment – is such a good thing, and you have helped with that. Well done and thankyou.

  21. SadButMadLad August 14, 2010 at 8:44 pm #

    One way to fight the alternative medice people is not to fight them with science but to fight them with their own weapons. Tell them that alternaive A is better than MMS. Then tell them that alternative B is better than A. Then that MMS is better than B. Then you can get them to use science to show which is really the better medicine.

    • scotslawstudent August 14, 2010 at 10:40 pm #

      I dunno about how that one works in practice. The only way that really works is if alternative A is better than MMS and the only way you’d know if alternative A is better than MMS is to test alternative A to see if/how well it works.

      So basically alternative A is going to have to be an actual medicine. It’s not exactly beating alternative medicine people at their own game to say that medicine A works better than just drinking bleach and there’s studies to prove it.

      Personally the idea that someone can’t see the harm involved in drinking bleach is a massive question mark in my mind. If someone doesn’t stop drinking MMS even though you tell them the thing that’s scalding their windpipe happens to be a type of strong bleach there’s not going to be a rational argument in the world that’ll stop them.

  22. Jason Reid August 15, 2010 at 6:11 pm #

    As someone who works as a chronic illness coach I am disgusted at these modern “snake oil” salesmen that populate the internet.

    What is equally as bad are the “miracle diets” which insist that Crohn’s sufferers must eat certain foods that I know would send me to the emergency ward.

    Because every chronic illness manifests itself differently in each person, what works for one person does not necessarily work for another. The other issue with chronic illnesses is that symptoms can often wax and wane on their own. If someone tries a new or “alternative” treatment and suddenly encounters a natural bout of remission that person can become convinced that the treatment worked.

    Yes, I don’t entirely trust big pharma, and sometimes certain medications can cause undesired effects. But I do know there are many standards and tests in place before a drug can be considered effective and safe. That is not the case with many alternative medicines.

    I truly believe that one of the biggest problems we have today with quackery can trace its roots to the outdated way we view illness. Chronic illness is now the leading global health problem and cause of death. The very nature of chronic illness is that it’s unpredictable and long lasting.

    We don’t like the idea of an illness we can’t cure. It frustrates doctors, scares insurance companies and begets conspiracy theories from patients who start to think there IS a cure out there that’s being kept from them.

    While I like to think I am a logical person, I can also understand the emotional factors that play into decisions by seriously ill people. Some turn to religion while others come up with “religions” of their own.

  23. mmsfraud August 15, 2010 at 11:18 pm #

    Hi there! I have been campaigning against Jim Humble and the MMS scam for several months now, trying to spread the word. It’s absolutely incredible how prolific the promoters of MMS have been online! There are so many websites set up to promote and sell this stuff, it’s just incredible. It makes sense when you consider that it’s all “money for nothing” if you don’t have any scruples. It’s really great to hear from other people standing up against this snake oil salesman, we probably can’t hope to actually shut him down, or stop him becoming rich from this fraud, but I just hope we can save some people from harming themselves and seeking proper treatment for their ailments. Obviously you don’t need convincing :) But I’ll post my website address here anyway in case people are still looking for real information regarding MMS.

    http://sites.google.com/site/mmsdebunked/

  24. Ute August 16, 2010 at 9:30 pm #

    Oh well. Never mind. I guess you’ve just seen Darwin at work, so to speak. ^^

  25. Matthew Platte August 16, 2010 at 9:34 pm #

    There’s a typo in this sentence: “Don’t criticise out opinions”

    • Rhys Morgan August 16, 2010 at 9:54 pm #

      Thanks, I’ve corrected that now :)

  26. Annie August 18, 2010 at 10:29 am #

    Dear Rhys,

    I just listened to your interview on Skeptics Guide. You would have to be the most erudite and mature young man I have ever heard.

    Bravo.

    It gives me hope for the future! My nine and ten year olds think you’re just the bravest guy! They were really horrified by the whole MMS situation you described.

    But it was good that you outlined the fact that people can get desperate enough to be willfully ignorant.

    Sad reflection on the forum though, that you could explain it so well to a nine and ten year old, and yet the moderators and commentators of the forum didn’t ‘get it’

    You are well on your way to being a master of the art of Intellectual Self Defense already!

    Take Care,

    Love

    Annie

  27. Lisa H September 1, 2010 at 7:35 pm #

    Rhys,
    Wow. What a story. I heard your interview on “Skeptics Guide to the Universe” and followed it up by reading this. I think you’ve covered the topic well—all I’d like to say is I was blown away by your articulate and eloquent statements both here and in the interview—impressive, period, but for a 15-year old?! Again, WOW.

  28. Caro September 18, 2010 at 7:41 pm #

    Just got to second everyone else here, Rhys. I suffer from a chronic illness myself (“just” asthma, thankfully – mine’s well controlled with inhaled steroids and leukotriene antagonists), and nothing enrages me more than the quacks that prey on sick people, particularly us chronics. We can’t be cured, but I know it takes some people a long time to accept that, and during that time they are so, so vulnerable. That’s one of the reasons I’m a sceptic.

    I’ve warned people against MMS before, but in that case the person was asking for information, not prejudiced in favour, so I think someone at least was spared chlorine dioxide poisoning. Keep up the good work :)

  29. Astonished by ignorance September 25, 2010 at 4:38 pm #

    @19.27 in your clip. So if I found a cure for cancer, under the 1939 cancer Act, “No one may make claim to cure cancer” It is illegal for me to tell people? what if I actually had a cure? I should go to Jail? And you promote this as a good thing? What the hell? Oh yea its better to let your Mummy/Daddy or friends & family die of cancer than have some one break the law by trying to help them from dying hu? After all it may kill them hu! Shocking…. totally shocking

    • Rhys Morgan September 25, 2010 at 4:46 pm #

      Yes, I’m in FULL support of Cancer Act 1939.
      If you thought you actually had a cure, do tests on it. Proper medical trials.
      Believe me, there would be millions and millions of people wanting to publish your work if you had indeed found a cure for cancer.

    • Zeno September 25, 2010 at 4:48 pm #

      @Astonished by ignorance

      Here’s the Act so you can read it for yourself.

    • Press Not Sorry September 25, 2010 at 4:55 pm #

      @Astonished by ignorance: What shocked me was the complete lack of any sort of counter argument in your reply. It’s just a stream of sarcasm with some “hu’s” thrown in for good measure.

      Do you have access to scientific studies that support the claims made for MMS with regard to curing cancer? If so, please do share them with us. In the meantime, this is the 1939 Cancer Act: http://www.whale.to/cancer/act.html

      [No person shall take any part in the publication of any advertisement—

      (a) containing an offer to treat any person for cancer, or to prescribe any remedy therefor, or to give any advice in connection with the treatment thereof;]

      • Astonished by ignorance September 25, 2010 at 5:20 pm #

        Do you have access to scientific studies that support the claims made for MMS with regard to curing cancer? If so, please do share them with us.

        I know nothing of MMS, did I say I did? I just found it hard to swallow a child saying “under the 1939 cancer Act, No one may make claim to cure cancer”, why am I the only one that find this horrific? I am ignorant of said Act but I will read up on as such, if said statement is true then I stand by said statement, if not, eluding to supplied link, then the child’s parent’s need to re-educate him

    • KateKatV September 25, 2010 at 5:30 pm #

      @Astonished by ignorance. Perhaps you are in the incredibly fortunate position of never having anyone who is close to you suffering from any kind of cancer? If you had direct experience, you would know that cures simply do not come into it. No-one can be cured of cancer, since the word cure implies a quick and permanent solution to a problem. But very many people have lived cancer-free for years, even decades, after receiving treatments for cancer – and that is not a typo, cancer is usually tackled with a combination of treatments over a long period.

      If you were in the position to be able to formulate a treatment you would be a research scientist or doctor and would know the correct form of words to describe it and the tests and trials it would have to go through before any claims for efficacy could be made. Indeed, to be credited as the originator of a treatment you would be a very senior person leading a highly-skilled and multi-skilled team.

      This law may be old, but it remain an immensely valuable measure to help protect people from charlatans and “snake oil” salesmen who seek to make money from the very human desire to see beloved family members restored to health quickly and effortlessly. Unfortunately the human body doesn’t work like that. Recovery from cancer is a long and painful process, full of “two steps forward, one step back” experiences and there are no guarantees.

      • Astonished by ignorance September 25, 2010 at 5:42 pm #

        I have been lead here in full research as my 15yo dog (who I nearly love as much as my kids) has been diagnosed with an interpolatable brain tumor & has been given two months to live so I search alternatives or just let here go, at least trying to find said alternative’s is better than sitting about waiting for the inevitable is it not?
        “Perhaps you are in the incredibly fortunate position of never having anyone who is close to you suffering from any kind of cancer?”
        No not cancer but a car accident, so I had no time to say good by, you are not alone in suffering we have all had some!

      • KateKatV September 25, 2010 at 6:06 pm #

        @Astonished by ignorance. I am sorry your dog has cancer. You have been remarkably lucky to have her for 15 years – that is an advanced age for a dog. It seems to me you have two choices – you can spend your time, and a lot of money, trying to help her live for perhaps a year or two longer. The treatments are likely to be painful and make her unhappy and miserable. Or you can spend as much time as possible with her now, make her last few weeks as comfortable as possible so she knows how much she is loved and when your vet advises you to, let her go. The latter is the choice we made when our dog had breast cancer. It is hard, but you have to weigh your desire to keep her with you as long as possible against her quality of life.

        By the way, while I have lost a relative and friends to cancer at sadly young ages, the one I was closest to, whom I visited after her operation and went to her chemo sessions with, is still alive and well and cancer-free a decade later.

        In any case, this is not about personal experience! And it’s not about cancer. As I understand it, Rhys started his campaign against the illegal advertising of a banned substance (yes, two separate breaches) to people who have a chronic condition – which he has himself – because someone who is not a doctor was giving medical advice (also illegal!) to an individual and urging him or her to continue with that treatment despite the fact the person was reporting predictable adverse effects.

    • Naz September 25, 2010 at 5:41 pm #

      @astonished by ignorance

      I like your name, it perfectly sums up my reaction to your post.

      The 1939 Cancer Act is in place so that the public doesn’t confuse fraudulent and dangerous potions with proper medical advice. These fake cures are invented by charlatans so they can make instant money by feeding of the gullibility and desperation of their customers.
      No one, without accredited and relevant medical training should ever claim to have a cure for cancer.

      Do you have the qualifications to perform intensive and impartial trials that up to the clinical standard to accurately test your cures?

      Even though there are no ways to cure cancer, we can treat cancer. So it would perfectly reasonable that today,people have the chance to fight their cancer. It would be reasonable to assume that no one would willingly let their loved ones die without seeking sound solutions whilst abiding the law.

      I recommend you read the posts above yours for more reasons why not just anyone can claim to have the cure for cancer.

      That’s enough from me about this.

      Well Rhys, your work to draw awareness to the dangers of MSS had inspired me as an observational skeptic to come out and be more vocal in the skeptical community.
      I admire how you have defended yourself in all the arguments with the quacks without resorting to their level. I sincerely hope you keep this up.

      Best of luck,

      Naz

      • Astonished by ignorance September 25, 2010 at 5:50 pm #

        How eloquently you back up my astonishment of your ignorance, when you learn to read please go over my statement again

        “I am ignorant of said Act but I will read up on as such,”

      • Astonished by ignorance September 25, 2010 at 5:59 pm #

        “Do you have the qualifications to perform intensive and impartial trials that up to the clinical standard to accurately test your cures?”
        What cures have I mentioned? Have you heard the saying
        “Its better to be quiet & look stupid than to open your mouth & confirm it”?

  30. Press Not Sorry September 25, 2010 at 5:32 pm #

    Said statement is true. Two of us have provided the links for you to look at.

    The Cancer Act was designed to protect people from charlatans who claimed to have cures for cancer, extracting money from desperate people while distracting them from treatments that actually might help them. Obviously, someone who could prove they had a cure for cancer due to having data from extensive trials is completely different to a bloke who claims bleach cures cancer, along with HIV/AIDS, malaria, and whatever else you care to name, but that’s because the person with experimental data would have actual verifiable, replicable results.

  31. Anne September 27, 2010 at 11:24 am #

    Rhys
    I just heard you on Radio 4…
    I was diagnosed with Crohns over 20 years ago -when I was only 18. If you are looking for a support group contact http://www.nacc.org.uk They have numerous ways they can help you & put you in touch with other teenagers who also want support. I was introduced to them about 15 years ago & have found them a great help in many different ways. Good Luck

  32. Greg September 29, 2010 at 3:50 pm #

    For many years the western world has chlorinated our drinking supplies. We ALL drink a bleach solution yet no one is up in arms about that. This kind of fuss is typical of the induced hysteria because some kid has a bad time on some forum on the internet.

    • Rhys Morgan September 29, 2010 at 5:07 pm #

      Actually, the forum incident kicked off my campaigning, Greg.
      And yes, chlorine is added. However, Cl =/= ClO2.
      We’re not all drinking bleach solution. ClO2 will fairly rapidly decompose into chlorine and oxygen.
      Chlorinated water is not bleach solution.
      Chlorine Dioxide is.
      Also, the dose is what makes the poison.
      While the EPA in America did do tests on humans, they involved a solution of 5mg per litre of chlorine dioxide.
      MMS on the other hand, is over 9 times that at 46.9mg per litre.

    • Rhys Morgan September 29, 2010 at 5:09 pm #

      *…5mg of chlorine dioxide per litre of water…

  33. Vinton McCabe/Psoric September 30, 2010 at 11:44 pm #

    Sorry about your Crohn’s, Rhys. Have you ever considered homeopathy?

    • Rhys Morgan September 30, 2010 at 11:47 pm #

      Thanks.
      And haha. I see what you did there.
      I comment on your article about homeopathy and you come and recommend homeopathy on my blog. Great tactic.
      I’m doing just fine on Remicade a.k.a. infliximab, TYVM.

    • Mike Wagner October 1, 2010 at 8:17 am #

      I suggest that Rhys cluck like a chicken, spin around in circles 3 times, then hop in the air.
      Just as effective as homeopathy, and far cheaper.

  34. Jim Humble October 1, 2010 at 4:09 am #

    Rhys, Well, you have had a lot of good ignorant complements, but having to decided to write in the adult world, it’s about time you realize that true adults write facts instead of ignorant fiction. You decided to make a complete report of me without checking a single fact. Do you have any idea how irresponsible that is in the case of life and death? You hold people’s lives in your hand and check nothing. That is so irresponsible that you should stop writing for 5 years until you gain some adulthood. I am the one person in the world that would know that you didn’t check anything as I am Jim Humble, the guy that created MMS. You didn’t find out that chlorine dioxide (MMS) is authorized to be used on foods by the FDA. You didn’t know that MMS a chemical called stabilized oxygen has been on sale in Health food stores for 80 years. You don’t know that chlorine dioxide (MMS) is the most effective killer of pathogens on Earth. You don’t know that chlorine dioxide can be and is selective for pathogens while not doing any other damage in the body (Proven by the fact that there are more than 1000 companies on the internet that use chlorine dioxide for that one reason that it is selective. (Google “chlorine dioxide selective” and you will find those those companies). You haven’t talked to a single person who claims to be cured by MMS and there are thousands. You just started writing out of the meger knowledge of what a 15 year old boy Knows. You did no investigation. You know nothing about the chemistry. You know nothing about how chlorine dioxde kills pathogens. A lot of people think you are a hero. They probably you at least checked something out, instead of nothing. Let me tell you, as a 15 year old, you are still responsible for what you write. Now a number of people will believe you and some of them might even have a life threatening sickness. Do you have the guts to really check out MMS and then write another letter telling the truth so that at least some of those who you are now responsible for can hear the truth? I make no money from the sales of MMS. It is cheap. Most people can afford it. 5 million have used it, 200 thousand lives saved, and you simply start talking from total ignorance. If you think that is reporting you have such a long ways to go. Write me if you have the nerve. Jim Humble jimvhumble@gmail.com

    • Mike Wagner October 1, 2010 at 6:46 am #

      Mr “Humble”,
      My father worked in hazard materials management and water treatment for over 30 years.
      I showed him your website.
      He was absolutely shocked that you would dare sell those chemicals as a ‘medicine’ to naive and desperate people.
      You are a con man and deserve prison at the very least.

    • Twinarp October 1, 2010 at 6:59 am #

      “chlorine dioxde kills pathogens” – It’s pretty good at killing people too. Humble, you are an incredibly offensive excuse for a human who preys on the meager (spelling) knowledge of others to sell them an insanely corrosive and toxic substance.
      Produce a double-blinded randomised placebo trial (Oh, you can’t, it would be UNETHICAL to allow people to take toxic levels of a simple chemical).
      You are proof that the world is not a rational place.

    • Mike Wagner October 1, 2010 at 7:01 am #

      While he has your attention, why don’t you agree to a public debate on the subject of your “miracle” solution. You could even bring your own panel of science experts with you. I’m sure there are doctors and scientists interested in Rhys’s position.
      I for one would love to see the published research on your treatment of HIV and Malaria, and how you are able to kill Plasmodium falciparum with your ‘treatment’.

    • Intermanaut October 1, 2010 at 7:13 am #

      I’ve got the nerve to email you. Check your inbox.

      If you’re so sure that you’re right on this, why aren’t you defending your name in court? I’ll tell you: because you know you’re wrong, and you know you’re responsible for offering people nothing but pain and false hope.

      You are a disgraceful man, and I use the word “man” very loosely here. You’re a mere blot on the landscape that is the history of humanity. People like you, but you in particular, disgust me. You are truly vile, and nothing in the world would change for the worse if you were not here.

    • Adam October 1, 2010 at 8:03 am #

      Wow. You have a fucking nerve, don’t you?

      You dare to accuse Rhys of being irresponsible about matters of life or death when you are the one selling poison to weak and vulnerable people just so you can get rich?

      You disgust me.

      Now, if you really believe all that shit about your product being safe and effective, perhaps you should take up with the FDA and explain to them why their warning that consumers should not go near it is wrong.

      Let us know how you get on.

    • noodlemaz October 1, 2010 at 10:07 am #

      Funny, Jim, but I think we’ve looked at everything you accuse Rhys of not researching.
      Perhaps it is you who has not read around the available information enough.
      http://noodlemaz.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/bleachgate-the-plot-thickens/

      Here I note that you have stated in a publicly-available online video that you were using the product ‘stabilised oxygen’.

      The fact that MMS or similar products may be used at low dilutions in water or to treat food products does NOT excuse its sale as a cure-all supplement; pesticides are sprayed on crops, that doesn’t mean it’s safe to drink pesticide from the bottle, as you advocate with your MMS promotions.

      Your actions are dangerous and lethal, you have much blood on your hands and the fact that you hide in developing countries to avoid being brought to justice shows that you are aware of this.

      Whatever your background, your true identity or whereabouts, or even how aware you really are of what drinking this stuff does to you (note also in my post that I deconstruct some of your patently false ‘biological’ claims like cancer cells containing bugs, bacteria having nuclei and such chemicals selectively killing pathogenic microorganisms) – you are encouraging very sick and desperate people to drink a harmful chemical.

      Your setting up of a church, denouncing ‘big pharma’ and regulatory bodies, insisting medicine is dangerous – all are indicative of the typical conspiracy theorist quack taking advantage of people.

      5 million people using a ‘cheap’ product still equates to a lot of money.

    • lonechemist October 1, 2010 at 3:48 pm #

      Jim Humble.

      You may think Rhys knows nothing about Chemistry.

      As an academic with a Master’s and a PhD in Chemistry and who now works in Medical Research I will categorically state he is correct when he calls it industrial bleach and highly corrosive & toxic.

      He is using facts, you are not.

      Dr Andrew N Holding

      • Crispin October 1, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

        Quick note from another chemistry graduate (currently a theoretical chemistry PhD student) to second what you have said.

      • Adam October 1, 2010 at 4:13 pm #

        Further to my post #64, is this a good moment to mention that I too happen to have a PhD in chemistry?

      • Al__S October 1, 2010 at 4:52 pm #

        as an industrial chemist with an honours degree in the subject, I’d like to add that the other well qualified chemists posting here are spot on- Rhys is right on this.

    • The Hollow Cynic October 1, 2010 at 8:51 pm #

      Humble, or whatever your real name is. The most generous thing I could say about you is that you are deluded. In fact I don’t believe this for one second. I think you are scum. You are a dangerous and, I would go so far as to say, evil specimen of life.
      I hope that the attention Rhys has brought to your pernicious SCAM results in a life sentence breaking rocks. Your ‘science’ is laughable and I already see some highly qualified individuals have taken your every sentence apart. How you sleep at night is beyond me; sociopathic is a massive understatement.
      Do the world a favour and drink a gallon of your own ‘medicine’ You do not deserve the respect I would offer to a wasp, and I really hate wasps. If MMS works on all these diseases (which it most definately CAN’T) then get it tested, licensed and distributed worldwide, so your name can go down in history and you will win at least 5 Nobel prizes. Alternatively, continue selling it via your ‘church’ and network of web muppets until you are finally caught and strung up as the pathetic charlatan that you are. Rot, you m*****f*****, you sicken me.

    • Justin October 2, 2010 at 4:46 pm #

      “Let me tell you, as a 15 year old, you are still responsible for what you write.”

      Let me tell you, Jim Humble, that as an adult you are directly responsible for the harm you cause to people who use your product. Responsible legally, morally, financially. Rhys does not yet hold those responsibilities; and yet as a human being, he exhibits more responsibility that you are perhaps capable of comprehending.

      If it is true that you ‘created MMS’, then I can only hope that you pay for your crimes, in an adult way. But of course your lack of comprehension will mean that you cry out how you are not ‘responsible’.

      • Maria October 20, 2010 at 8:42 pm #

        @Justin Oh Come on now , you are claiming Mr. Humble it is irresponsible, yet the USA Government made hundreds of trials without permit in my country Guatemala city and harming hundreds of innocent people with an inoculation with syphilis.
        Is that your good government trying to protect you, by using innocent people from abroad that couldn’t defend themselves?
        I really hope that the FDA and USA government really pays for their crimes too. How about that?
        And yet he (Mr Humble) exhibits more responsibility that you are perhaps capable to comprehend. I am using your same words against you, cause what it has come on the news about my country disregard, it is an abomination.

        “I feel that no-one wants to take responsibility to prevent injury to vulnerable people, desperately seeking a cure for their disease”
        And this is what this 15 year old kid says, he is more irresponsible than no one cause I have tried the MMS and I am well and alive and documented too, find me in facebook as Mariluz Paiz and I also have documents against the crimes done in my country by the USA government. An apology will not do. We the country, will seek for compensation and we will have it. Or maybe my country will benefit from MMS having it legalize it for not being compensated for the crimes they committed on our land. That will be an smack to Big pharma, isn’t it?

      • Maria documented October 20, 2010 at 8:47 pm #

        @Justin Oh Come on now , you are claiming Mr. Humble it is irresponsible, yet the USA Government made hundreds of trials without permit in my country Guatemala city and harming hundreds of innocent people with an inoculation with syphilis.
        Is that your good government trying to protect you, by using innocent people from abroad that couldn’t defend themselves?
        I really hope that the FDA and USA government really pays for their crimes too. How about that?
        And yet he (Mr Humble) exhibits more responsibility that you are perhaps capable to comprehend. I am using your same words against you, cause what it has come on the news about my country disregard, it is an abomination.

        “I feel that no-one wants to take responsibility to prevent injury to vulnerable people, desperately seeking a cure for their disease”
        And this is what this 15 year old kid says, he is more irresponsible than no one cause I have tried the MMS and I am well and alive and documented too, find me in facebook as Mariluz Paiz and I also have documents against the crimes done in my country by the USA government. An apology will not do. We the country, will seek for compensation and we will have it. Or maybe my country will benefit from MMS having it legalize it for not being compensated for the crimes they committed on our land. That will be an smack to Big pharma, isn’t it?

    • Pernille Nylehn October 6, 2010 at 9:47 am #

      Jim Humble.

      I’ve read your website closely. You present yourself as a humble (!) and altrustic man. But you don’t sound very humble in your response to Rhy. Quite the contrary, you are condescending, aggressive and arrogant.
      If you want to be taken seriousy, why don’t you give us some real proof about your miracle medicine, and stop abusing people?

      Pernille Nylehn
      MD, GP
      Norway

      • Maria October 20, 2010 at 8:18 pm #

        @Pernille Nylehn, like I said previously, I am documented and I am proof of what Mr. Jim Humble claims. Everyone here claims to be anything, but they do no give a license of what they are nor an address to be contacted. This are not claims, these are just ignorant responses of people who either have not tried it MMS on them or just fakes. So you can find me on facebook by Mariluz Paiz and I will give you enough proofs about the claims that he does.
        I am real and alive, and the one abusing people are the BIG pharma and FDA approved drugs killing millions on people claiming to cure them.
        And also coming to inncocent countries to do trials on people without their consent.
        The ones abusing people are the FDA and USA Government.
        Your approved drugs are killing people and it is documented, your vaccines are killing people and it is documented.
        NO ONE HAS DIED FROM DRINKING MMS, AND IT IS DOCUMENTED!!!

  35. Strummer October 1, 2010 at 6:49 am #

    Wow Jim! Why don’t you just provide real evidence that it works? You’re the one making extraordinary claims.

    • Maria October 20, 2010 at 8:10 pm #

      @strummer, I am documented if you want proof. If you dare to contact me. I am well and alive using MMS in daily basis you can find me in facebook by Mariluz Paiz. So do not come time with extraordinary claims.
      I also have extraordinary claims about the USA government using innocent human beings in my country Guatemala with no permit at all using them as guinea pigs for the experiments on their new drug penicillin. My grandfather was one of them.
      I have use MMS on daily basis and got ride of the diseases with extraordinary claims.

      • Shiroboshi October 20, 2010 at 9:03 pm #

        Maria,
        I hate to burst your bubbble, butPenicillin was developed in France and the UK in the 20s and 30s, primarily in Oxford and Sheffield, NOT the US.

  36. warhelmet October 1, 2010 at 7:32 am #

    You decided to make a complete report of me without checking a single fact. Do you have any idea how irresponsible that is in the case of life and death?

    What does this mean?

  37. Alex October 1, 2010 at 9:01 am #

    @Jimhumble
    What the heck is Stabilised oxygen?
    Please explain by what mechanism your product is selective. All you do is continually state the name of the chemical Chlorine Dioxide. On what receptors does it work. How is it working against Bacteria/viruses and Amoeba? How does it distinguish between the normal gut flora and the e.coli that is pathogenic?
    As a Cancer biologist I find your claims of miracle cures alarming at best, frightening at worst. I am not in the “bed” of big pharma as I am directly funded by charities. So as a researcher I have a completely unbiased view point here. Your views whilst crazy and apparently ever spreading, are not supported by the evidence, of which I cant find any. You can quote google searches and companies all you want but its not evidence. I would also like to add that if it is in fact not bleach, what is it? Why then is it used as a bleach? Why does the FDA call it a bleach? Why, infact, is Chlorine Dioxide ACTUALLY a bleaching agent if its not a bleach? I direct you here to the FDA press release about MMS http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm

    here to the Wiki site explaining that Cholrine Dioxide is a bleach
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide and is used to bleach wool.

    And here:

    so you can learn about chemistry

    Then here: so you can learn about basic Immunology
    http://www.bbts.org.uk/PDFs/events/Immunology%20for%20Dummies.pdf

    And lastly here: So you can learn about microbiology

    I hope you have found this useful and can answer my questions.
    Kind regards
    Alex

    • Maria October 20, 2010 at 8:05 pm #

      @ Alex: Where it is your license as Cancer Biologist?
      And you claim that you are not in bed with BIG pharma. On the other hand, I am well documented and alive person in Guatemala and you can check me out on Facebook by Mariluz Paiz. Hope that you can check me out and I will send you proof that MMS works and that I am cured of the diseases that I was fighting with prescription medicine that never worked like MMS did.
      I also have proof that your FDA and your government sent a team to inoculate hundreds of people in Guatemala with syphilis and now all documented preparing to sue the USA government for doing experiments on human beings in our country with no clinical trials at all.
      So if you come to me saying this stuff MMS doesn’t work and that it is not documented with no clinical trials I will shovel this arguments with what the USA government did on us years ago and with no proof to back up their claims on coming to inoculate innocent people in our land.
      So people of the world, MMS does cure “all”. I am prove of these claims and been using it on a daily basis with documented proof for all to see it. I am alive and documented and I am a source of proof if you really want to know. Not just claim with whatever you want. I am alive and well with no bleach on my veins.

      • Shiroboshi October 20, 2010 at 9:11 pm #

        Err…. just a question: You DO realise that most people posting here are NOT from the US, right! Most of us are in Europe, and primarily the UK….

  38. cathode October 2, 2010 at 4:58 pm #

    @humble

    You astonish and disgust me. Your message to Rhys sounds like the rantings of a mad man. You clearly have serious mental health issues and, although I am not a phsycologist, I would guess you are suffering from sort of messiah syndrome. I am however an oncologist with a degree in immunology and a PhD in biochemistry/ pharmacology and I can tell you that there is NO MECHANISM that would allow ingested bleach to target and selectivley kill pathogens, cancer cells, parasites….the list goes on.

    You can not provide a shred of evidence of this biochemical mechanism nor evidence of clinical efficacy using scientific methodolgy so I suggest you take your poison and drink it yourself.

    I also suggest that you donate all profits made from this SCAM to legitimate biomedical research charities.

    • Maria October 20, 2010 at 7:20 pm #

      @ Cathode you are supposed to be a doctor, although you are not posting any license of your acquired doctorates and PhD’s also you do not talk like one, you are so disrespectful when referring to someone as “mad man” and “mental health”, but had no major in Physiology, but you are giving an statement on someone mental health, so I guess you are nothing at all. But a SCAM.
      I would recommend to post your license or something to back what you are talking about.
      For instance I am in facebook by Maria Ramirez if someone would like to check me out. And very real and alive.
      I am alive and I am using MMS on a daily basis to cure the diseases all documented in a hospital and doctors in Guatemala. And now I am disease free by taking the MMS.
      I can back up all that I am saying. All it is documented.

      I also have documented all the damage that the USA government has done on our country Guatemala by inoculating innocent people with Syphilis all documented in the USA and now in Guatemala.
      If you still belive that your USA Government or your FDA works on your behalf of your health, think again, think twice and ask questions to this entity which it is working against you by killing hundreds on prescription drugs every day.
      I have proof that my grandfather was inoculated by these monsters. All documented.
      I have now proof that this MMS works, so don’t come to me with your gullible that you are a Doctor and do not back it up. Just by saying it and not proving it, makes you a fake and just no more than a STUPID claim.

  39. Vinton McCabe/Psoric October 2, 2010 at 6:01 pm #

    Hey Rhys,

    All fads aside, the best method of getting some handle on Crohn’s will always be diet.

    Here’s a link to a really great book on the subject. I was written by an allopath, so I’m not trying to steer you away from your belief system here. The author is a Canadian biochemist whose daughter was similarly stricken and who brought her a great deal of relief with the “Food and the Gut Reaction” diet.

    I must say that I was surprised to hear that you are not gluten-free, as any standard allopathic family practice doctor in the US would suggest that right up front before anything else.

    Good luck to you, and may this book help you conquer the Crohn’s.

    Regards,

    –V

    • Rhys Morgan October 2, 2010 at 6:10 pm #

      I’ve already tested negative for coeliac’s. I don’t have any gluten antibodies.
      I don’t go by what is written in books, I don’t go by what people say whether they’re a doctor or a homeopath, I go by clinical trials. One case study does not a clinical trial make.
      Anyway, I thought you said said the homeopathic sulphur cured you. If so, why are you still on a gluten free diet?
      Thanks for the luck, but to be honest, the infliximab is working for me.
      I’m not gonna ruin my diet by starting a gluten free one. I enjoy food too much to cut anything out.

  40. Vinton McCabe/Psoric October 2, 2010 at 6:12 pm #

    @Rhys–

    I’m not gluten-free. I suggested that you might do well to be.

    Not trying to fight with you–trying to help.

    –V

    • Rhys Morgan October 2, 2010 at 6:14 pm #

      Oh, sorry, I assumed you were…
      And yes, I do thank you for trying to help.
      I’m just saying that I do not wish to go on a gluten free diet when I’m doing so well without dietary changes :)

  41. Vinton McCabe/Psoric October 2, 2010 at 6:15 pm #

    Then I’m glad you found something that is working for you.

    I wish you well.

    –V

  42. Jim Humble October 3, 2010 at 2:23 am #

    This is an answer to #74 by Alex because he seemed to have a little less hate than the rest. I’m going to explain one more time because it might save one life. Stabilized oxygen, sold in health food stores for 80 years is sodium chlorite same as MMS. People have been drinking it for 80 years. Hundreds of thousands of them have been drinking it, exactly the same thing as MMS. Which is what the FDA called bleach. They are not all dead. In fact there has been no reports of side effects. You asked why I keep talking about chlorine dioxide. Well that is what creates the bleach. I NEVER SAID THAT IT ISN’T BLEACH. IT IS USED AS INDUSTRIAL BLEACH MANY PLACES, BUT IT IS NEVER USED IN THE HOME AS BLEACH.

    MMS, sodium chlorite, and stabilized oxygen are all the same thing. They are all sodium chlorite and they all create chlorine dioxide, and if you are really a chemist that is a fact that you should already know. So we are really talking about chlorine dioxide. Chlorine dioxide is a very efficient oxidizer. (which is an industrial bleach) An oxidizer steals electrons from that which it oxidizes. Electrons form the shell that hold molecules together. When the oxidizer steals the electrons the tissues that the molecule is forming comes apart and a hole is blown in the side of the pathogen. Antibiotics on the other hand penetrate the sides of the pathogen and attacks the nucleus and they usually must be designed for special jobs where Chlorine dioxide attacks them all. Chlorine dioxide has a very low oxidation potential (the electrical amount of volts that determines what it can attack). As long as this potential is below the ORP (oxidation reduction potential) of the body cells it will not oxidize (attack them). Pathogens are of a different make up than body cells and thus they can be attacked. I told you that there are a thousand companies on the internet that use chlorine dioxide for that reason, because it is selective. Check the internet. Google “chlorine dioxide selective.”

    There is not room to write a book here, but my book gives all the details. You can download the first 1/2 of the book for free. If you really are a chemist what I have said here should be enough for you to check further. Read the download, it gives much more data. If you buy the second half and don’t like it, I’ll refund your money.

    I do the best I can. I recently spent 5 months in Africa where I treated 800 HIV/AIDS patients successfully. There is no test in Africa to prove HIV or AIDS are cured, but they 95% had there cd4 white blood cells go back up some as fast as 200 points in two weeks. Their viral load went up high and then fell to zero, but the important point was they felt good, and went back to work or to their lives. In the group of 800 fourty of them had cancer, 50 had numb legs and feet, 5 had heart disease, some had malaria that wouldn’t go away, some had Hep C, and there were about 20 other diseases present. All the diseases were gone when the protocol was finished over a period of a few weeks. I kept records of them all. I have all of their phone numbers. Anyone can come here and phone as many of them as you like. I’ll pay the phone bill. I discovered MMS. I have spent 18 hours a day developing it, traveling around the world curing people. Now everyone saying prove it. Amazing, no one wants to help. The government in Africa refused to look just like all of you. NO ONE HAS BEEN HURT NOR SICK FOR MORE THAN TWO HOURS AND THOUSANDS ARE WELL AND HAPPY AND EVERYONE WHO HAS BEEN MY CRITICS ON THIS SITE HAS REFUSED TO CHECK A SINGLE THING I CLAIM OR ANY OF THE CHEMISTRY, OR ANY OF THOSE WHO HAVE GOTTEN WELL. YOU CONDEM. YOUR JUDGE. WANT TO SEE ME IN JAIL FOR 20 YEARS BUT NONE OF YOU WILL CHECK THE FACTS, AND THUS I AM SORRY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU COULD SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE AND THOSE OF YOUR LOVED ONES BETWEEN NOW AND THE NEXT 20 YEARS. THERE IS NO ONE WHO IS ANY MORE BLIND THAN THOSE WHO REFUSE TO SEE.

    WHY DON’T SOME OF YOU CHECK THE FDA. IT’S SO GREAT. LAST YEAR 500 PEOPLE DIED AFTER TAKING ASPIRIN. THE FDA ACKNOWLEDGED THAT 100 CHILDREN DIED FROM COUGH MEDICINE LAST YEAR. THEY DON’T WARN PEOPLE BECAUSE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE LOST WHEN PEOPLE QUIT USING COUGH MEDICINES. THE ONLY THING THAT THE FDA COULD FIND CONCERNING MMS WAS SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO COMPLAINED OF A STOMACH ACHE, AND ONE WHO CLAIMED TO HAVE LOW BLOOD PRESSURE. THAT’S ALL.

    Finally, Alex there isn’t room to answer all your questions here. but if you will email me with the questions I will answer them all. If you are the scientist you say you are, then you will want to know, or you will look up the chemistry. The doctors in Africa all understood after I explained, you probably can to if you want to, but it seems most of the critics here don’t want to. Sorry for you guys. Jim Humble

    • noodlemaz October 3, 2010 at 12:06 pm #

      Mr Humble.

      “When the oxidizer steals the electrons the tissues that the molecule is forming comes apart and a hole is blown in the side of the pathogen.”

      - There is no such thing as a tissue where your pathogens are concerned. A tissue is a group of cells together performing a function; e.g. the skin is a tissue, the lining of the gut or stomach, the heart muscle – any muscle. These are tissues. In completely misusing such basic biological terms you show your ignorance and the fact that you simply know nothing of medicine.

      “Antibiotics on the other hand penetrate the sides of the pathogen and attacks the nucleus and they usually must be designed for special jobs where Chlorine dioxide attacks them all.”

      1) Not all antibiotics penetrate bacterial cell walls or membranes. That completely depends on their mode of action and different classes of antibiotics target different cellular functions; for example some attack the enzymes that replicate the bacterial DNA or that facilitate respiration. For a basic round-up of that see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic#Antibiotic_classes

      2) BACTERIA DO NOT HAVE A NUCLEUS. This is the very meaning of ‘prokaryotic’ – the kind of single-celled organism that bacteria are. Before-nucleus. Again, that is pre-GCSE (age 16) material that school children are taught. Maybe not everyone remembers it but if you’re going to follow your own advice, Google will help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria It’s in the first sentence!

      3) Yes, many antibiotics are selective for bacteria. That is a strength of a medicine, not a weakness. The point is that, due to their different cellular structures and functions (also see above page), we can use some drugs – not all ‘man-made’ – other organisms have used antibiotics for millennia; penicillin is derived from moulds; killing bacteria is advantageous to other organisms because it leaves more food for them, for example. So we simply refine these evolutionarily-produced compounds and try to create more for our own use.

      4) The fact that bleaches will kill any bacterium does not make it a suitable medicine. It means it kills ANY CELL. If I go to my lab tomorrow and put some bleach on some mammalian (human, mouse or whatever) cells growing in a dish, they’ll die. In fact we use bleach to kill things before throwing waste away to make sure it’s safe. Pouring this stuff into your body is stupid.


      You say NO ONE IS HURT; well we have at least one individual who has a Twitter account who has been permanently damaged after taking MMS. I’ve no doubt there are many more.

      We appreciate your taking the time to address some people’s concerns and I look forward to hearing more from you – provided you actually read the responses properly.

      Also we do have access to your book so I hope to find some time around my studies to have a look at what you’ve written in there.

      • Alex October 3, 2010 at 2:22 pm #

        @noodlemaz Says it better than I can. So I ditto her remarks.

        The thing is @Jimhumble your trying to bullshit the very people here who studying this sort of thing. I understand that from your position you may even honestly believe you have a one potion cures all solution, but the evidence just doesn’t back you. Any good scientist when the evidence doesn’t back their idea doesn’t go on the rampage and start shouting at people or spouting rubbish. They accept that they might be wrong and move on.
        I think that what you do, Sir, is shout at anyone who doesn’t believe what you say and call them ignorant. Is it ignorant to ask questions? Is it ignorant to research and find out that what Jim Humble, or to give you you full scientific and medical Title, Jim Humble, states is in fact not correct. Before you can even ask people for a clinical trial you need to show proof of concept. And you haven’t even done that!
        If you wish to be taken seriously then you need to take this stuff to the lab, you need to produce evidence in vitro to show that bacteria and not normal cells are attacked. You need to describe and the mechanism within detail referring to the direct receptors that MMS may be working on. You need to conclusivly show the wide range of pathogens it kills (Should be easy its a bleach) and then you need to publish. Then you need to step up to invivo models and do the same again. This may then allow you to go for ethics to start a clinical trial which you will need to blind. Only then if the evidence suggests that your right can you start making these claims tentatively.
        Let me help you get started. Its an industrial Bleach – This is where you will fall down, It will not work. Take it as a compliment that people of science and medicine (and chemistry) have taken the time out of their day to describe to you where you have gone wrong (not just me most of the above) so that you
        A) stop giving people harmful products and
        B)stop making yourself look like a fool.

        You ask above if I had a basic understanding of chemistry or if I am in fact a scientist. I am a scientist thank you (not a chemist mind), and I do have a basic understanding of chemistry. My forte is Immunology (Thats the immune system and defence against pathogens) and now Cancer Immunology. So I can tell you your immunology and microbiology concepts are screwed up.

        You admit that Chlorine Dioxide is an industrial bleach (I’m glad we all agree on this) but then somehow you say that when someone drinks it it doesn’t act as a bleach. How so? What makes this special?
        You say you have recorded the data from your HIV trial (How in the world did you get approval for that?) but ok, lets see this data. Please publish it in a journal, Failing that please just put it on the internet, with your methods.

        I look forward to hearing further your ideas on this and how you feel you will proceed to conclusively show your “MMS” works.
        Until then please kindly stop saying it does and giving people A) A bleach and B) false hope and C) A BLEACH!

        Regards
        Alex

        P.S Welcome to the peer review system.

      • Maria October 20, 2010 at 6:36 pm #

        Proof right here! There it is better proof for that which it is me. I am Maria Paiz from Guatemala city. I am in facebook, so you can check that I am alive.
        I can give you proof that it is true and it cures all.
        I hope you have the guts to come here to Guatemala city and find out and stop this site from being misleading.
        One other thing, I will be glad to show you how the FDA and the USA government did experiment on people and the general public while injecting them with syphilis and other sickness which were susceptible to their new discovered penicillin, their new drug.
        And while you try to discourage me from using it, which will not work, because I have try it, use it and drinking it for more that 4 months now with no side effects, no sickness from MMS and well documented proof that it really works and that it is not a bleach, I will be glad to show you that the experiments of your USA government did a real damage on innocent people with no regard on their health. That I will also prove to you. So I dare you to talk to me if you want proof!@!

        If I am really dead since you are saying that it will kill all the living microorganisms within us, then tell me how I am alive? How? And how I am in such a good health after being on MMS for 4 months.
        I have proof and you know it!

    • Adam October 3, 2010 at 12:10 pm #

      I think you may have misunderstood the requests by me and others to produce evidence that it works.

      What we are looking for is properly documented evidence (ie in a peer reviewed journal) that your magic potion actually makes people better.

      Clearly, you thought we meant endless wittering on with a whole load of irrelevant facts mixed in with a healthy dose of your crazy opinions.

      Easy mistake to make, I guess.

      So, I repeat: where is the evidence to back up your claims?

      Oh, and BTW, I do have a PhD in chemistry, so I know exactly what bleach is. I still remain to be convinced that it’s a good idea to drink it.

      • Maria poof right here! October 20, 2010 at 6:33 pm #

        Well, there it is better proof for that which it is me. I am Maria Paiz from Guatemala city. I am in facebook, so you can check that I am alive.
        I can give you proof that it is true and it cures all.
        I hope you have the guts to come here to Guatemala city and find out and stop this site from being misleading.
        One other thing, I will be glad to show you how the FDA and the USA government did experiment on people and the general public while injecting them with syphilis and other sickness which were susceptible to their new discovered penicillin, their new drug.
        And while you try to discourage me from using it, which will not work, because I have try it, use it and drinking it for more that 4 months now with no side effects, no sickness from MMS and well documented proof that it really works and that it is not a bleach, I will be glad to show you that the experiments of your USA government did a real damage on innocent people with no regard on their health. That I will also prove to you. So I dare you to talk to me if you want proof!@!

        If I am really dead since you are saying that it will kill all the living microorganisms within us, then tell me how I am alive? How? And how I am in such a good health after being on MMS for 4 months.
        I have proof and you know it!

    • Pernille Nylehn October 6, 2010 at 10:06 am #

      Dear Jim HUmble,
      you keep saying MMS kills all pathogens, such as bacteria, viruses, yeasts and molds.
      IF that were true, MMS would surely be lethal.
      A human body contains many kilos of bacteria, most of which are not only harmless but necessary, amongst other things for our immune system to work. There are billions of bacteria in the large intestine, on the skin, in the nasal cavity, the mouth etc etc.
      We have lived in happy symbiosis with these microorganisms for millons of years. Even the mitochondria (“fuel stations”) in the nucleus of all our cells probably came from bacteria some millions years ago.
      Without these microorganisms we would die. Simple as that.

      There are some microorganisms in our skin etc. that may become threatening in certain circumstances (i.e. if our immune system isn’t working properly), but they don’t hurt us as long as we’re healthy.

      So. Can you please tell me how your special chlorine dioxide can tell the difference between benignant (and necessary) microorganisms, potentially dangerous microorganisms and dangerous microorganisms? Do the dangerous ones have a red flag sticking out of their cell wall? Does MMS contains a sort of homing device that leads it to only to the dangerous ones?

      If you want to know my view: Chlorine dioxide is a simple chemical substance which is surely an oxidant and able to kill pathogens. But a simple chemical substance can’t think. It can’t tell the difference between good guys and bad guys. If it really could wipe out all microrganisms in the body it would certainly kill us too.

      Most humbly looking forward to your kind explanation.

      Pernille Nylehn
      MD, GP
      Norway

      • Maria October 20, 2010 at 6:31 pm #

        Well, there it is better proof for that which it is me. I am Maria Paiz from Guatemala city. I am in facebook, so you can check that I am alive.
        I can give you proof that it is true and it cures all.
        I hope you have the guts to come here to Guatemala city and find out and stop this site from being misleading.
        One other thing, I will be glad to show you how the FDA and the USA government did experiment on people and the general public while injecting them with syphilis and other sickness which were susceptible to their new discovered penicillin, their new drug.
        And while you try to discourage me from using it, which will not work, because I have try it, use it and drinking it for more that 4 months now with no side effects, no sickness from MMS and well documented proof that it really works and that it is not a bleach, I will be glad to show you that the experiments of your USA government did a real damage on innocent people with no regard on their health. That I will also prove to you. So I dare you to talk to me if you want proof!@!
        About the homing device, hahaha don’t try to be funny Mr.Pernille Nylehn, which I am sure it is not your name or you are not even real!
        If I am really dead since you are saying that it will kill all the living microorganisms within us, then tell me how I am alive? How? And how I am in such a good health after being on MMS for 4 months.
        I have proof and you know it!

  43. Blackprojects October 3, 2010 at 2:52 am #

    What a load of Bull .

    Drinking any Form of Bleach even if Waterd DOWN is a BAD idea.

    Bleach even when waterd down will destroy the digestive tract after hitting the Stomach and getting a massive boost from the Stomach ACID resulting in Severe ACID Reflux and Massive damage to the Human GUT.

    Using caps to answer a question shows the signs of a desperate person realising that an Elephant is in the room with you and it is not Happy!

    The UK FSA is in the Process of banning MMS once it is totaly banned from sale in the UK in person or over the internet any one trying to sell or market it for Sale in the UK will be on the wrong end of the UK Legal system.

    .

    • Maria October 20, 2010 at 6:26 pm #

      Well, there it is better proof for that which it is me. I am Maria Paiz from Guatemala city. I am in facebook, so you can check that I am alive.
      I can give you proof that it is true and it cures all.
      I hope you have the guts to come here to Guatemala city and find out and stop this site from being misleading.
      One other thing, I will be glad to show you how the FDA and the USA government did experiment on people and the general public while injecting them with syphilis and other sickness which were susceptible to their new discovered penicillin, their new drug.
      And while you try to discourage me from using it, which will not work, because I have try it, use it and drinking it for more that 4 months now with no side effects, no sickness from MMS and well documented proof that it really works and that it is not a bleach, I will be glad to show you that the experiments of your USA government did a real damage on innocent people with no regard on their health. That I will also prove to you. So I dare you to talk to me if you want proof!@!

      • Kristjan Wager October 22, 2010 at 8:11 pm #

        The fact that you are alive is not evidence for anything else than your existence. The fact that you claim that you’ve be cured for something is not evidence for anything else than the fact that you make the claim.

        I think most people here are aware of the research done in Guatemala, and also know that penicillin was discovered decades before those experiments happened.

  44. MMS is a scam October 3, 2010 at 5:03 am #

    Mr Humble said ” I am the one person in the world that would know that you didn’t check anything as I am Jim Humble, the guy that created MMS” and then he said “Stabilized oxygen, sold in health food stores for 80 years is sodium chlorite same as MMS.” So really he didn’t create anything — it already existed.

    It’s sad that he feels he has to come here and verbally attack Rhys who is has educated himself re: MMS. He must feel really threatened. Perhaps he is just annoyed that Rhys is getting more press time than he has ever gotten.

    Mr Humble, I have researched your claims re: Malaria in Malawi and MMS — there is no evidence that you were involved in anything. Please provide the names of the doctors in Africa that agreed to the use of MMS, I will contact them and see what you did. Also why do you feel it necessary to photoshop yourself into pictures — is this not an act of deception?

    Keep up the good work Rhys.

    • Maria October 20, 2010 at 5:42 pm #

      You are really working for the FDA aren’t you? I can provide you with names of Doctors using this MMS in the red zones in Guatemala, how about you coming here to Guateml city and tried and take that away from the public? I bet we will greet you with the same kindness that your USA Government gave us when coming to Guatemala to inoculate with syphilis in the 1940′s. But please don’t come to preach me with names, because I will hunt you down and find out where are you at and I know that we will find you!

      • girlonthenet October 20, 2010 at 8:55 pm #

        HI MARIA!

        I found you on facebook, but there are quite a few Maria Paiz on there. Could you let me know which one you are? None of them *look* particularly stupid, so it is hard to identify you.

        If you think this is a mean comment, why not try replying to the polite, decent ones by people who are kindly requesting the scientific evidence you so plainly don’t have?

  45. cathode October 3, 2010 at 1:11 pm #

    Jim Humble

    As a cancer researcher I am very curious about your proposed mechanism for MMS selectivley targeting cancer cells. Your responses above show that you clearly do not have a good working knowledge of microbiology or chemistry but maybe you have a better understanding of cancer biology?

    Looking forward to your response.

  46. MMS is a scam October 3, 2010 at 1:29 pm #

    Jim Humble –you stated “I do the best I can. I recently spent 5 months in Africa where I treated 800 HIV/AIDS patients successfully. There is no test in Africa to prove HIV or AIDS are cured, but they 95% had there cd4 white blood cells go back up some as fast as 200 points in two weeks. Their viral load went up high and then fell to zero, but the important point was they felt good, and went back to work or to their lives. In the group of 800 fourty of them had cancer, 50 had numb legs and feet, 5 had heart disease, some had malaria that wouldn’t go away, some had Hep C, and there were about 20 other diseases present. All the diseases were gone when the protocol was finished over a period of a few weeks.”

    Where is the proof of this? if you, in fact, had blood test results, why not publish them? Where were these people treated? Who was involved getting the patients? Provide some real proof? Are you saying that MMS selectively hunts down cells infected with HIV (remember HIV is a retrovirus — do you know what a retrovirus does) kills all the HIV — without affecting the rest of the cells in the body — please provide proof of selectivity — this isn’t actually possible.

    Are you also stating that MMS cures cancer, hepatitis? How? Proof please.

    The only way people are going to believe you is if you produce some real data — if you don’t the public will view you as a fraud.

    • Maria October 20, 2010 at 6:24 pm #

      Well, there it is better proof for that which it is me. I am Maria Paiz from Guatemala city. I am in facebook, so you can check that I am alive.
      I can give you proof that it is true and it cures all.
      I hope you have the guts to come here to Guatemala city and find out and stop this site from being misleading.
      One other thing, I will be glad to show you how the FDA and the USA government did experiment on people and the general public while injecting them with syphilis and other sickness which were susceptible to their new discovered penicillin, their new drug.
      And while you try to discourage me from using it, which will not work, because I have try it, use it and drinking it for more that 4 months now with no side effects, no sickness from MMS and well documented proof that it really works and that it is not a bleach, I will be glad to show you that the experiments of your USA government did a real damage on innocent people with no regard on their health. That I will also prove to you. So I dare you to talk to me if you want proof!@!

  47. MikeHypercube October 3, 2010 at 1:37 pm #

    Mr Humble makes a spurious link between blowing a hole in the side of an atom (what chlorine does) and blowing a hole in the side of a cell. A difficult mistake to make but an easy one to put across on people who do not have a basic science education. Sadly that includes many people north of the Zambezi.

    From his own description of the chemistry, Mr Humble describes something which by its very nature cannot have the intelligence or complexity it would take to selectively target one kind of cell and not another. I cannot believe that in making such a claim he does so in honest ignorance. There are many alternative health practitioners who make claims based on concepts which do not exist in known science such as “healing energy” and “water memory” and while I believe such people are mistaken, they are honest and I wish them luck. I cannot believe that Mr Humble is deluded in any way, he knows exactly what he is doing.

    There is a wonderful old cartoon of a scientist showing off a complex diagram of his scientific theory, and in one box it says “Here a miracle happens”. In Jim Humble’s case the “Miracle” is the selective action of oxidation in disease cells while not happening to healthy body cells. For those of you without a scientific education, please be aware that the “Miracle” in the aptly named “Miracle Mineral Solution” is not explained by any of the explanations given to date by Mr Humble. There is neither a description of the process, nor any scientific research, which supports this step.

  48. Aaron October 3, 2010 at 2:42 pm #

    Many people with far more knowledge than I have said eveything to Mr Humble and proven, if we needed extra proof, tat he is a fraud and a patronising, arrogant and scientifically inept man. I just wanted to wish Rhys all the best with this and to point one thing out in Humble’s first post…

    “5 million have used it, 200 thousand lives saved” – does this mean 4.8million people died or werent cured? thats bad odds even if it did work as he says, which I know it doesnt.

  49. Pernille Nylehn October 3, 2010 at 5:11 pm #

    Dear Rhys!
    I think you are very brave, and you have done a good job trying to inform people about a dangerous substance. I’m appalled at the way allegedly grown-up people have treated you.

    I’m a medical doctor in Norway, and have recently become aware of MMS. I’ve read quite a lot about it, and I am utterly shocked. Complementary medicine is one thing, but this is, as you most precisely state, an industrial bleach. Poison. And there’s no reason whatsoever to believe it could do any good, quite the contrary.
    I’m even more shocked that people in the so-called civilised world actually believe the utter crap that “Jim Humble” says about MMS: AIDS being cured in days and malaria in hours, all microorganisms in your body will be cleaned out etc ect. You don’t have to be a chemist or a doctor to understand that this is impossible.
    Moreover – if t were true that all microorganisms in your body could be cleaned out by taking MMS, it would be lethal. There are billions and billions of bacteria in a human body, and most of them are not only benignant but necessary – they make up parts of our immune system, they protect our skin and intestines, and lots of other vital functions. We have lived in happy symbiosis with bacteria and other microorganisms for millions of years. Even the cells’ power supply (mitochondria) originally came from bacteria that were incorpoated in human cells. Most bacteria are good for us! :)

    The sad thing is that those who scream loudest about these matters often are the most ignorant, and anyone disagreeing with them are defined as idiots or brainwashed by BigPharma.
    Typical remark: “So you think you know it all just because you went to university?”.

    No, I don’t think I know it ALL. But i know a hell of a lot more about the human body, diseases, physiology, chemistry and medicines than people who haven’t bothered to learn something properly. Is that a crime?

    Rhys: Keep up the good work, keep looking for facts and knowledge, and don’t let stupid ignorant people get to you. You did the right thing!

    Sincerely,
    Pernille Nylehn, MD, GP, Norway

  50. Sam October 4, 2010 at 5:19 am #

    I read all the posts here. And I dont know how MMS work, and I think even Jim Humble may not know everything about MMS. But I use MMS for over 3 years, not all the time, but when I need it for a cold, or any health problem, or sometime just for energy, it is much better than L-Theanine, that they use in all the energy drinks.Millions of people using MMS, and if it was dangerous, why would they use it? I think they use it , because it works. Everybody knows that MMS may have some side effects, but they just take 1 or 2 drops less for a day, it is only a sign that it works a little too fast.I dont agree that it is harmful, but some people could also die from eating peanuts.

    However, I would like to know if I m in some kind of danger if I use MMS, and what kind of danger? What exactly will happen to my health? And why, exacily? All the post s I read here, not one explained, how MMS is dangerous, or what is the problem with using MMS?
    I dont really care who say what, or who knows what, or who got what degree. just explain to me how MMS can hurt people? Even If I use 2-3 drops of MMS just for 2 days, I feel very energetic for several days after, and I know that even Jim Humble can not explain this.
    Millions of people using MMS for all kinds of health problems, and it extend peoples lives.
    People know it works, and it is up to the the scientists to figure out how it works,or why it is dangerous, and if they cant figure it out they will have not much credibility with the public.

    • Adam October 4, 2010 at 7:07 am #

      Dear Sam

      I’m not going to get into a scientific debate with you: there’s plenty of information on the science in the posts above which you can read if you’re interested (although I suspect you’re not).

      Instead, I’m just going to make one simple request.

      Please go and see your doctor and explain what you have been doing. It is quite possible that you may have done considerable damage to your oesophagus, which may not be producing symptoms yet, but will be storing up really serious trouble for the future, particularly if you keep drinking the bleach.

      Seriously, you really should go and get it checked out. Your health is too valuable to take risks with it.

  51. Sam October 4, 2010 at 6:19 am #

    I think I should explain, why I like to use MMS for extra energy.
    If I would walk 5 miles today, I would feel very. very tired, But, if I use 2-3 drops of MMS once a day, for 2 or 3 days, I will feel good, in a positive mood, and i could walk 10 miles. and I would be not even tired. And this could last for days after using MMS.

    • MMS is a scam October 5, 2010 at 3:41 am #

      Sam — your explanation makes no sense. You just wrote about how javex in well water made you feel so good — but bleach only lasts for about 24 hours — so your explanation holds no water. It’s all in your head — you believe using MMS puts you in in a good positive mood and you can walk for ten miles without being tired. If I gave you what you thought was MMS, you would still experience this. Stop pushing MMS, your statements are nothing but anecdotes and really are unbelievable. If the effect lasts “for days after using MMS” then it isn’t MMS because it wouldn’t last in the body that long — I doubt it even makes it out of the gastrointestinal tract. Perhaps a little less emphasis on what you believe and more concentration on how the human body works, metatabolism etc would show you that the effects you are experiencing are not from MMS. Your blind faith is perplexing. But then again adherents to quackery like MMS really don’t have a good understanding of science. If you just believed you felt good and could walk ten miles without MMS, it would happen. Why put your health at risk for something that you can experience without MMS.

  52. Sam October 4, 2010 at 10:35 am #

    Adam
    I see my doctor every year, or 2, and I have no problem with my oesophagus.And i have a very good doctor.Not all doctors are the same, a lot of them are good, but a lot of them should not be in the profession in my opinion. Like scientists, some are good, some are stupid.
    Stabilized oxygen is on the market for 80 years, and all scientist thought it was oxygen in it that was working,but it was Jim Humble who found out it was chlorine dioxide.And you may not know this, but drug companies now working on some drugs, based on exactly on MMS, on what Jim humble discovered. And I hope they do a good job, making it in a pill, without side effects.
    Anxiety and depression medications all work by making gaba,But they all come with many bad side effects. However people could just buy gaba, and use it without any side effects,they just have to know the dosage.
    I thank you for responding, but I have no problems using MMS, but there maybe some people who dont know how to use it properly,or something, and like I wrote some people could even die from eating peanuts.

    • Adam October 4, 2010 at 10:50 am #

      Glad to hear you’re healthy for now.

      But does your doctor know that you’re taking MMS?

    • Adam October 4, 2010 at 10:51 am #

      Oh, and BTW, which drug companies are working on new drugs based on MMS? Sounds rather unlikely to me. What’s the source of that information?

    • MMS is a scam October 4, 2010 at 3:51 pm #

      Sam — If you would kindly do some research, you will see that chlorine dioxide has been used in mouth rinse products prior to Jim Humble appearing on the scene — he discovered nothing.

      Do you know what the PLACEBO effect is. It’s sounds to me that is what you are experiencing after taking MMS — feeling better, having more energy etc — definitely the placebo effect.

      The only thing Jim Humble has done is misapplied science to his own hypothesis — this is pseudoscience. Then without one study, decided that he could cure every illness, he has definitely told some big whoppers in the process. Well the quackery is being slowly exposed by people like Rhys Morgan and it’s about time is all can say.

  53. Sam October 4, 2010 at 4:28 pm #

    Adam
    I m using MMS now for About 3 years, and I never thought of it as bleach, just MMS.
    But now,as this blog called bleachgate, I remember ,we used to live in the country about 30
    years ago, and we had well water. The well was about 30 feet deep and had about 15 feet of water in it, and every 6 months, or a year we used to put one gallon of bleach into to the well., to keep it clean, and all my neighbors did the same. And we used to drink the well water and our 20 cats, and our 100 chickens, and we had very healthy cats, and free range chickens.
    I used to work all day, in hay season throwing heavy bales of hay on top of the wagon in a 90 and100 degree heat, and dust. Most guys from the city would of never lasted for more than one hour.
    If I think of it now, where did I get all that energy? Now I know, it was from the bleach in the well water. The bleach was called; JAVEX.
    And now, that I figured all this out, I think I will be using the MMS more often.
    I read a lot, and I dont know now where I read about the drug companies, that working on drugs based on MMS, but if I see it again, I will take a note of it, and I will let you know.

    • Adam October 4, 2010 at 5:16 pm #

      I still really think you should tell your doctor what you’ve been doing. It may save you from some serious health problems in the future.

      However, it’s your health that’s at risk, not mine. If you want to drink bleach because you think it’s good for you, that’s your choice. Just please get some medical advice so you are making that choice aware of the consequences.

    • MMS is a scam October 5, 2010 at 2:11 am #

      Sam — the problem with your description is that:

      “When bleach and water are mixed together to create a cleaning or disinfecting solution, the solution is only good for 24 hours. The temperature of the water does not affect the cleaning or disinfecting abilities of the solution. After the 24 hours, the solution begins to lose needed disinfecting properties. Therefore, it is recommended that for disinfecting purposes, the solution is made fresh daily.”

      So your increased energy from your javexed well water had nothing to do with your perception of have increased energy. People make faulty correlations like this all the time which is exactly why people believe MMS works — it’s called the PLACEBO effect.

      Cheers.

    • Adam October 5, 2010 at 3:20 pm #

      So, given that you’ve not been able to get back to us with any further information about these alleged drug companies who are working on products based on MMS, I take it we can safely assume that that little piece of information was just made up, can we?

  54. Sam October 5, 2010 at 5:30 am #

    MMS
    In my opinion, millions of people used bleach, like Javex in country wells, we used to put a full gallon in our well every 6 month, and we never had problem drinking it, and this was long before Jim Humble discovered, and put together the MMS protocols for different health problems. And, if people will not get better, if it is just a placebo effect, as you wrote, MMS will be gone in no time. However if MMS will help people, to live a better, healthier longer life, I think MMS will be spreading like wild fire. But I dont think everybody should use it, if some people dont want to use it, they dont have to, if they think they want to use something else.

  55. MadGav October 5, 2010 at 10:53 am #

    Sam, given that the negatives of using MMS to do much more than cleaning surfaces have already been clearly laid out. I’d like to come back to this comment you made above:

    Anxiety and depression medications all work by making gaba,But they all come with many bad side effects. However people could just buy gaba, and use it without any side effects,they just have to know the dosage.

    I’d be interested to hear which antidepressants or anxiolytics ‘make gaba’. Benzodiazepines (like diazepam) can enhance GABA mediated activities (acting on the GABA A receptors), In contrast, Buspirone exerts whatever little action it can through being a partial agonist at post-synaptic 5-HT1A receptors and full agonist at pre-synaptic 5-HT1A receptors.

    There’s some research which suggests that antidepressants might increase the expression of GABA B(1a) receptors in the hippocampus and another paper that suggests a link between GABA A receptor subtype and a particular phenotype of Schizoaffective Disorder.

    None of these suggest that the drugs are ‘making’ GABA (indeed, Benzodiazepines will not work in the absence of endogenous GABA).

    Thanks.

  56. Sam October 5, 2010 at 12:15 pm #

    MadGav

    I thank you, for explaining these drugs, and if some of these drugs may have some bad side effects, I hope there are drugs for the side effects.

    • Al October 5, 2010 at 1:12 pm #

      The way you say this, are you saying that you don’t regard MMS as a “drug”? Because it quite clearly is. One with:
      A: no “real” postive effects
      B: some very real nasty potential side effects.

      Just because it is “alternative” doesn’t make it a “not a drug” or “non pharmaceutical”.

  57. MadGav October 5, 2010 at 12:58 pm #

    Well, Sam, using additional medication to treat side-effects is one option (although, as you know, doctors try to minimise polypharmacy if at all possible).

    It depends largely on the seriousness of the side-effects. And what the patient is prepared to tolerate in order to recover. I’m sure it will come as no surprise that people (when desperate) are willing to put up with almost anything if they think it might lead to a cure.

    Some ‘side-effects’, however, (vomiting and diarrhoea spring immediately to mind), can be more generally regarded as a reason to stop treatment, rather than evidence of the efficacy of that treatment.

  58. Sam October 5, 2010 at 5:35 pm #

    The users of MMS know the “real” positive effects of MMS.
    And they also know the side effects.
    And as I wrote before; If MMS will not have “real” positive effects. it will be gone in no time, nobody will be using it.
    But, if MMS will help people to live a better, healthier,and longer life. like I wrote before,
    MMS will spread, like wild fire.
    And so far nobody explained the dangers of using MMS, what I was asking before.
    I m using MMS over 3years now, on and off, or as I need it, and I was drinking beach, Javex in our well water for decades, and long before Jim Humble discovered the health benefits of bleach, MMS. and put together the MMS protocols.

    • Adam October 6, 2010 at 10:24 am #

      “And as I wrote before; If MMS will not have “real” positive effects. it will be gone in no time, nobody will be using it”

      The evidence is against you there. Homoeopathy has no real positive effects, and is still popular over 200 years after it was first dreamed up on the back of a fag packet. Do not underestimate the gullibility of desperate people to believe in quack remedies.

  59. MadGav October 5, 2010 at 6:54 pm #

    Sam, sorry but your latest comments really don’t hold water. A number of posters have pointed out the risks associated with imbibing bleach. Sadly a great deal of effort has been put into creating and maintaining the myth of MMS (multiple websites, and the distinctly unpleasant spectre of seeing supposed beneficiaries of MMS trolling the fora associated with chronic disease).

    All humour aside, this substance does not match the claims made for it and it is both cruel and exploitative to suggest otherwise. Mr Humble preys on people who are looking for a miracle and yet offers litte more than water purification tablets. That is both crass and morally reprehensible.

    As I’m sure you already know, the side-effects of drinking MMS include diarrhoea, vomiting and hypotension secondary to acute dehydration.

    Chlorine dioxide is also harmful if swallowed, can cause irritation to mouth, oesophagus, stomach, and mucous membranes. Eye contact causes redness, irritation, pain, blurred vision, tearing, corneal injury and burns. Harmful if inhaled, coughing, headaches, laboured breathing, nausea, shortness of breath, pulmonary oedema. May also have chronic effects on lungs, resulting in chronic bronchitis and permanent lung damage

    http://www.haloxtech.com/pdf/MSDS-Chlorinedioxide(ClO2)-540ppm.pdf

  60. Sam October 5, 2010 at 9:52 pm #

    MadGav.
    I agree with you, MMS like everything else should not be miss handled,or miss used, or abused, and people should read the book first, learn about MMS, and follow the protocols.
    And, as 5 million people use MMS and as I read some people had the protocol backwards, some made mistakes, and some people even drank 20 X the normal amount, and he was very sick for about a full day. People should start with one drop, or even a half of a drop first, as everybody is different, but I should not explain all this here,as it is all in the book, and in the protocol.
    I can only explain my own experience with MMS, As I drank Javex bleach in well water, for many years even before Jim Humble and MMS , and I had a lot of energy then, and at that time I never even thought of it, but as I started to use MMS I noticed how good I felt and I had all this extra energy. Jim Humble never talked about this, and I think he may not know everything about MMS. I read in forums, that other people also had this experience. I remember, last year someone posted in one of the forums, that his friend up in Canada used MMS, but he never even mixed it with the activator, he just put MMS drops in his drinking water, and he was very healthy, lots of energy, and he was very active in sports, and nobody can keep up with him.I wish he posted this himself, but it was his friend who posted,and I wanted to know how many drops he was using and how often. At this time my interest in MMS is about the energy.

    • mms is a scam October 6, 2010 at 2:08 am #

      Sam — you are not making sense. You stated previously “MMS
      “In my opinion, millions of people used bleach, like Javex in country wells, we used to put a full gallon in our well every 6 month, and we never had problem drinking it, and this was long before Jim Humble discovered, and put together the MMS protocols for different health problems.” The gallon of javex you put in the well would not have any effect for more than a day or two. You stated the well water made you feel good probably because of the javex but that’s impossible unless you only felt good one day every six months.

      Anecdotes are not proof of anything. The alternative world thrives on faulty correlation and lack of scientific education.

    • Alex October 6, 2010 at 10:34 am #

      Wait what? MMS is now a performance enhancing drug like some steroids? Should we be testing for MMS is sporting events? Oh wait no…because even athletes know not to drink bleach.

      I’ve lost patience now, I keep getting these ridiculous claims into my email box. If you want to drink bleach, fine go ahead. But if you suffer Ill affects because of it, You’re on your own and don;t say we didn’t warn you.

  61. Sam October 6, 2010 at 4:19 am #

    MMS
    I m very impressed with your effort to explain, that javex bleach have no effect on well water
    for more than a day, But I m not convinced.
    And i dont think science is wrong, but in this case, maybe science is limited?

    • Pernille Nylehn October 6, 2010 at 10:41 am #

      Dear Sam,

      Science certainly has its limitations, but non-science has nothing but limitations. Perhaps science can’t prove or explain the alleged properties of MMS, but before you can say that someones has to try and test it scientifically.

      Noone has done that, and Jim Humble certainly hasn’t. I have read his website carefully, and he doesn’t provide any references to proper scientific studies that test the benefits, efficiency and possible harmful effects.
      All pharmacfeutical medicines have to go through rigourous research and testing before they are approved. If the testing proves that they don’t work, or have detrimental side effects, they are stopped.
      The problem with MMS, and many other “alternative” medicines, is that they are not properly tested, have no proper documentations and haven’t been subject to scrutiny by independent parties. Doesn’t that worry you?

      If MMS really is effective and not harmful it would be easy to prove. Why hasn’t Humble done that? The so called research he says he has done either doesn’t exist or is carried out in a very unscientific manner. So – noone actually knows whether it works or not.

      Many people think or feel MMS is good for them. Ok. One can’t argue with people’s feelings. But the manufacturer of a product can’t prove his case by referring to feelings an testimonials, he has to provide scientific proof.

      You say MMS would be off the market in no time if it didn’t work. I’m afraid the world doesn’t work that way. There are thousands of examples of harmful and useless products that have been sold and used for tens and hundreds of years without ever being proven effective. The manufacturers of these miracle products use exactly the same tricks as the Coca-cola company, Dior, Nike, Levi’s, you name it. They spend more money on marketing and branding than they spend on the actually manufacture of the product. With the right marketing you can sell anything. Read Naomi Watts “No logo” if you are in doubt (no, it isn’t about medicines, but the same mechanisms apply).

      There is no reason to believe that the companies selling “alternative” medicines are more noble or altruistic than anyone else. Everyone wants to make money. Some do it by making good products. Some do it by cynical and manipulating marketing. As consumers, we need to educate ourselves about all the ways big companies try to fool us, and always ask ourselves these questions:
      “How do I know this shoe/medicine/soft drink is really what it makes out to be?” “Is it worth the price?”.
      “Is someone trying to fool me?”.
      The default answer to the last question should be YES.

      Buy what you like, it’s your life and your body. But don’t accept any kind of proof.

      Sincerely
      Pernille Nylehn
      MD, GP
      Norway

  62. MadGav October 6, 2010 at 8:22 am #

    Sam: Once again you miss the point. Mr Humble’s book is the very last place anyone should look if they wish to be well informed.

    If you are drinking MMS (and I’m sure you’ll understand my skepticism) in an attempt to increase your energy levels, then you should stop doing so. This is not a substance that has any beneficial effects when taken internally and, more importantly, at the concentrations recommended it is likely to cause toxic side-effects (like the diarrhoea, nausea and vomiting mentioned previously).

    There is already a mountain of misinformation about MSS, please try not to add to it further by offering unverified testamonials.

  63. Justin Satov October 6, 2010 at 2:35 pm #

    You know, Jim, in the real world, medications and treatments have to go through some pretty intense testing, requiring REAL proof and REAL results; your fabricated anecdotal ‘evidence’ isn’t going to cut it, my friend.

    I feel it is pertinent to point out at this time that I am fighting very hard to keep myself from dispensing the pleasantness with which I write to you, as you truly deserve to be (metaphorically) ripped apart. But I do believe that answering a deranged, angry and aggressive conman such as yourself is no way to make progress. Unfortunately, for one as deluded as yourself I fear that progress may never happen. But I digress…

    I’m no chemistry or biology student/graduate. I took it in high school like everyone else and even *I* know that MMS is a terrible thing to use as a treatment or medication. What you’ve done is simply taken the cheapest, most potent, and most accessible substance you can find and re-branded it as a miracle cure. That is heartless, to say the least.

    Now that you know my qualifications (in case you failed to notice, that would be none), may I ask what your qualifications are? I imagine they’re pretty similar to mine. For example, I notice that your name is just Jim Humble, not Jim Humble MD, or Dr. Jim Humble. These are very important “title enhancers” that add weight to your claims. But, alas, you are just a man with a high school education. Although, perhaps you can tell me of your work history. Have you any lab experience? Did you maybe start a university program and drop out partway through? Essentially I would like to know if ANYTHING in your life qualifies you to be working with medicine, real or homeopathic.

    On that note, doctor or not, I expect people to provide hard evidence of their discoveries, especially when they’re medical in nature. If you truly did help 800 or so people, I would like to see some evidence of this. Provide us with your white blood cell count reports, and your viral level reports that you claim to have obtained. Please do, Mr. Humble, as I dearly wish to see. Failing that, how about you test your theory in a developed nation with a supervised team of real doctors, where your results will be published for all to see. I encourage you to try your scheme in a part of the world where there are organisations designed to shut people like you down. The fact is, there is zero credence to what you preach, and you would never get away with something like this in the developed world. You’d never make it to the testing stage because as soon as they read what you’re trying to test, you’ll be thrown in the crazy pile. And you know this to be true, which is why you’ve skipped clinical trials and proper investigations into your product. You’re worse than the ‘big pharma’ you complain about – at least they’re selling REAL products.

    I suppose the biggest point for me in your outburst/reply to our good friend Rhys, is your command of the English language. You have many typographical errors, grammatical failures, and generally the sentence flow of an angry twelve-year-old. And yet you claim to be an adult, with great accomplishments like discovering that feeding bleach to desperate people is easy if you tell them it’ll cure AIDS. You are wildly distasteful and should be arrested for what you’ve done, and what you continue to do.

    If you really are an adult in the way you describe, you will reply to me. I’ve also sent this to your email that you provided, just in case you’ve decided to stop coming back. Are you ‘adult’ enough to respond to your critics?

    Sincerely, and stay out of medicine,
    Justin Satov

    • Pernille Nylehn October 6, 2010 at 6:58 pm #

      As far as I know, “Jim Humble” is a geologist. So he does have some education, but hardly relevant …

      Pernille Nylehn

  64. Sam October 6, 2010 at 4:16 pm #

    I think , Oprah would not agree with all this, and this kind of unholy accusations.

    I think there are more questions hanging in the air here, and now, not just about MMS, But the credibility, and the limitations of science, in every area, The Custer channel wing plane comes to my mind.They can build a space station, and fly to Mars,But the Custer channel wing plane was never mass produced, because scientists can not explain the performance of this plane in the last 75 years, Within the limits of science.
    In my opinion, now I like to see proof that MMS will not cure malaria using Jim Humble’s protocol.

    • Al__S October 6, 2010 at 4:55 pm #

      You must just be trolling at this stage, surely? Why else would you bring in an obscure bit of engineering, the science of which is well understood and the idea dismissed as it wasn’t actually any good?

      Also, nice one with shifting the burden of proof there. In the real world, we require proof that medicines are effective, not evidence that they’re not effective.

      • MMS is a scam October 6, 2010 at 5:18 pm #

        In my humble opinion (tee hee), I think that Sam may well be a sock puppet of Jim Humble. They both seem to rely on the same type of illogical and somewhat disordered thinking.

        MMS is not a medicine, never has been, never will be. The burden of proof is on Jim Humble to prove that his “water purification” tablets do anything except purify water. The onus is not on people to proof it doesn’t work. What if big pharma worked that way — here people, here’s a pill that cures just about anything under the sun, no we didn’t test it because it’s up to the great masses to prove our miracle pill doesn’t work, don’t worry if it makes you sick, because that’s normal.

        There is a reason why medications are rigorously tested.

        MMS shouldn’t even been classified as an alternative therapy because it’s not even acceptable on that level.

        The cult-like milieau which MMS is promoted is quite disturbing. Humble’s minions are dispatched like annoying little termites to any website that actually has people saying “wait a minute, this stuff can’t work or this stuff is dangerous”.

        Maybe Sam should go hang out with the Humbleites where he will be accepted with open loving arms. Here he is just a troll we have to tolerate.

    • Justin Satov October 6, 2010 at 5:24 pm #

      So… because Oprah would support drinking industrial bleach… we need to prove that MMS does NOT work? I’m sorry. You’ve lost me.

      Oprah is a TV show host, who knows very little about biochemistry, medical science, or chemistry. That’s kind of like saying you get relationship advice from Jerry Springer…

      I’m going with Adam on this one, ask your doctor if MMS is a good thing to be drinking. If he’s truly a good doctor as you say, he’ll tell you to stop. Seriously, it’s your health and you can do what you want, but for the sake of your own argument that we have to disprove MMS, go ask a professional that you know and trust.

      And in regards to that, science doesn’t work that way. You don’t propose an idea and let everyone else disprove it. You propose an idea, test your hypothesis, and try to replicate the results if all goes well in your initial test. If you get substantially consistent data, you can then propose the idea to other scientists to test it. But in order to get there, you need to provide hard data, not tell people that you have the phone numbers of people you’ve helped and invite them over for a teleconference.

      Honestly, you don’t need to know anything about science to be able to tell this guy is a fraud.

      Look at the way he talks. He’s angry, belligerent, and unwilling to respond to people that are telling him he’s wrong and backing it up with significant facts. Aside from that, my favorite Jim Humble quote is “I am the one person in the world that would know that you didn’t check anything as I am Jim Humble, the guy that created MMS.” You don’t have to be a psychologist to be able to tell this guy has a profoundly overinflated view of himself. He quite clearly believes that he is superior to the rest of the scientific community because he “discovered’ a product that he also admits already existed.

      A sort of rule-of-thumb when dealing with “miracle medicine” is to talk to the person that ‘discovered’ it and start asking questions. Try to prove them wrong. If they get angry and overly defensive, that means they’re insecure and have little to no faith in their product. A real scientist would accept your critique and calmly explain what’s going on, back it up with facts that you can check yourself. If they ever tell you to do a google search to back up THEIR claims, it’s BS.

      Don’t buy into the all of the junk people tell you, I guess is what I’m trying to tell you. Question everything, especially when doctors and chemists are calling it crap.

    • apgaylard October 7, 2010 at 12:08 pm #

      Not relevant to the MMS discussion, but I’m an aerodynamicist (ground vehicle, rather than aircraft) and looking at the Wikipdeia article (and other descriptions of this wing) I have no trouble in understanding the relevant mechanisms; though I come at this with the benefit of developments in science since the 1940s, when Custer came up with the concept..

      It’s a creative idea that exploits well-known physics. Unfortunately it seems that the problem has been that the disadvantages of this approach outweigh the advantages. To quote Wikipedia:

      “Later, research performed by NASA have come to the conclusion that the advantage in lift and field length performance achieved did not offset the concept’s many deficiencies in climb and high speed capability, as well as problems meeting certification requirements for general aviation[1]. The main issue is that the semi-circular beam wing configuration incurs increased profile drag and weight penalties over a conventional wing of the same lifting planform, and a common straight wing could provide almost the equivalent lift enhancement when exposed to the same slipstream induced increased dynamic pressure.”

      However, it looks like a more thorough understanding of the concept allied to other aerodynamics technique might bring this idea to life.

      At any rate it looks like science has explained this idea. It may take a while, but it gets there in the end. When it does we have an enhanced appreciation for the way nature works and may be able to use this to our advantage. On the other hand the scientific understanding of the effect of drinking a bleach is very complete: it’s a bad idea.

  65. MadGav October 6, 2010 at 6:24 pm #

    Oprah?

    Seriously, Sam… is that all you’ve got?

    It’s up to you/Jim to provide proof for these incredible claims. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

    Mr Humble’s ‘science’ makes no sense (as has already been pointed out).

    But I get the impression that you already know that and that you’re just going through the motions.

    • MadGav October 6, 2010 at 6:27 pm #

      Okay… so apparently everyone else got there ahead of me.

      Thanks guys!

      [I still consider myself to be fashionably late]

  66. Sam October 6, 2010 at 10:30 pm #

    I did not say, that Oprah is supporting MMS, I said, that Oprah would not agree with this kind of unholy accusations.

    Every year I used to donate a lot of money for cancer research, our friend had cancer, a young guy, and he had surgery chemo and radiation. a short time later the cancer was back, and more chemo, and radiation.and he died. Every year people donate billions for research , but in the last 50 years no progress, it is the same today as it was 50 years ago.the cancer society will have to dismantle the minute there is a cure for cancer. However I dont want to make this a very long post,
    I m not a sock poppet of Jim Humble, I was using bleach, javex in our well water long before Jim Humble. So why call me names? And why call Jim humble names?
    I was just explaining that , when I started to use MMS I gained back my health and energy that I had many years ago when I used to live in the country, and drink well water with bleach in it.

    • mms is a scam October 7, 2010 at 3:43 am #

      Sam — people die from cancer despite radiation and chemo, but many many people survive — there has been tons of progress over the last fifty years. Where do you get your information from — Jim Humble?

      Nobody has been cured from cancer by using MMS.

      Jim Humble deserves to be called names because he preys on people, he cheats them with lies, he is nasty and rude etc, etc. In short, he is despicable.
      And you do appear to be trolling.

    • Pernille Nylehn October 7, 2010 at 6:58 pm #

      Sam – 50 years ago children with leukemia died. Now 70-80% are cured by chemotherapy.

      No progress?

  67. MadGav October 7, 2010 at 6:45 am #

    Sam, you need t stop making claims that you can’t back up with evidence:

    http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/prod_consump/groups/cr_common/@nre/@sta/documents/image/crukmig_1000img-12627.jpg

    • Justin Satov October 7, 2010 at 1:04 pm #

      That’s an interesting graph. I’d assume that the fairly significant decrease in male deaths would be the advancements we’ve made in dealing with prostate cancer.

      Sam, person to person, I’m asking you to do a little research. Look into this stuff on your own and keep an open mind. Research bacteria and pathogens. Research cancer. Research industrial bleach. Do it outside of the context of MMS so as to avoid any potential for bias. Trust me, you’ll find that we’re right about this one.

  68. cathode October 7, 2010 at 12:14 pm #

    I notice that there has been no response to my request for more information about the mechnanism by which MMS can selectivley target and kill cancer cells while leaving healthy cells unaffected.

    Funny that.

    • Rhys Morgan October 7, 2010 at 12:20 pm #

      Hmm… I wonder why…

    • Pernille Nylehn October 8, 2010 at 4:01 pm #

      I think perhaps the humble man is going throug the index of a biochemistry book, trying to find some more words he can jumble together so it looks like a serious and well-founded explanation.

  69. Justin Satov October 7, 2010 at 1:04 pm #

    :) is all I have to say.

  70. Justin Satov October 7, 2010 at 1:52 pm #

    AN UPDATE

    So I don’t know who read my first post, but I challenged Jim to reply to me via email. Much to my surprise and delight, I opened my email inbox this morning and it was better than christmas. I found a reply. I’m actually impressed that he responded, just based on how otherwise silent he has become. Maybe I poked his ego a little too hard?

    Without further adieu, here’s his reply; the content is unedited but things contained in asterisk are things I added for your reading enjoyment. *Like this*

    Justin,

    I find your critical evaluations pretty much the same as all my critics. None have taken the time to learn the chemistry of Chlorine Dioxide which is MMS. Or talk to a single person who says they have been cued. Yes, Yes you can say that the procedures of the FDA haven’t been followed. Do you know the average cost of getting approval for a drug is $800 million dollars at this point. Where do you think I would ever get that money.
    *It’s called endorsements from companies that think your product actually has real potential*

    But look at the people who are now using MMS. More than 5 million of my free downloads have been downloaded. More than 2 million people have used MMS and thousands of bottles are sold each month throughout the world indicating that close to a million people are using it daily. I receive not one cent from the sales of MMS anywhere in the world.
    *But somebody does – and you’re profiting from the book. With 5 million free downloads, I think we can reasonably assume a quarter of those people then go on to purchase the second half of the book, which is $12. That’s $15 million dollars. And that’s probably being generous, although I have no real figures to back it up so I won’t comment on that further.*

    I personally worked in the aerospace industry as a research engineer. I set up lab research tests for the scientists during that time. I worked on the Snark Missile, the first intercontinental ballistics missile, did research in space laboratories as a high vacuum engineer and technician, I have a patent on a special electronic printed circuits technique, I wire as a technician the first computer controlled machine at Hughes Aircraft Co, at Magneto Hydrodynamics Inc. (MHD) as a technician I worked directly with the theoretical physicists wiring lab controls for the first space engine that would drive a ship from Mars to the outer planets.
    *I don’t know, I’m seeing the word technician a lot. Technicians are certainly educated in what they’re doing, but it sounds like most of his work is comprised of wiring. Electrical work isn’t chemistry unless you’re doing it at the molecular level, which wiring isn’t.

    When I went into gold mining I set up and did more than 10,000 lab tests creating a new and safer ways to not use mercury in gold mining making it safer for gold miners. I wrote 5 books on mining and developed new technology on gold recovery which is being used in limited areas now in the jungle. This technique does not use chemicals of any kind as opposed to all other gold mining that uses extremely poisonous chemicals.
    *I searched Amazon, Chapters, and the ISBN database and all I can find is the single book he’s written on MMS. There was one other book on holistic and alternative ‘medicine’ that mentions him, but in the context of MMS. Wrong again?*

    You were asking for my qualifications. These are some of them. Now what are your qualifications? For example, can you look past that hate to see some of the technology of MMS (chlorine dioxide). You won’t accept anecdotal evidence so I can’t show you the thousands of emails. Of the 800 that I recently treated I do have their records, but I can’t send them to you. That would surely get me in jail. But if you want to, you can come here and call as many of them personally as you want. They all have phone numbers. I pay for the phone bill.
    *I won’t accept anecdotal evidence because it’s not accurate and it can’t be replicated. And talking to people that already believe in your product is useless. As useless as talking to anyone that jumps wholeheartedly into alternative medicine. They’ve already bought it, they already believe it helped, and again, an individual’s perception on something isn’t scientific because it can’t be replicated. On a less related note, that sentence that started with “for example” is terrible. That entire paragraph is just a punch in the face of the English language.*

    In lieu of phoning I suggest that you take a layman’s look at some technical data about chlorine dioxide, yes that bleach all you guys keep talking about, but none of you bother to don’t check out. *WHAT?!*

    If you critics has just thought of it a little bit it might have occurred to you that there is more than one kind of bleach. And more than one way to bleach. Did you know that? No, you assumed without thinking that bleach was bleach, and that was that. Well, let me give you a layman’s look at a technical subject. Did you know that one kind of bleach is an oxidizer chemical, in fact that is the most prevalent kind of bleach. Guess what, the oxygen that you breath is an oxidizer and yes, because it is an oxidizer, it is also a bleach. It is used in industry for bleaching purpose in some cases, and it is used to make iron oxide in some cases because it can oxidize iron.

    I have to get slightly more technical here but I know you can understand if you want to, and if you don’t want to you won’t and then it won’t matter, will it. The ability to oxidize things (Bleach them) and in the case of pathogens that also means kill them is determined by the oxidation potential. That is the voltage that a chemical exerts upon surrounding material. Oxygen has a limited ability to kill (that is to bleach pathogens) in the body. But this is not because it is a weak oxidizer, but rather because it is an oxidizer that is too powerful. This is because oxygen only penetrates to a certain level in the tissues before it is used up. I forgot to mention, that as any oxidizer is itself destroyed or converted to it’s neutral form when oxidation happens. So you see, oxygen will penetrate only to a certain depth in the tissues before it is used up by doing its normal work. It then cannot get to the pathogens that are often deeper that oxygen can penetrate. This is well know, not my data, ask any doctor why oxygen doesn’t kill all the pathogens in the body.

    Now enter MMS (chlorine dioxide). MMS is a bleach because it is an oxidizer and no other reason. But it has a much lower oxidation potential than oxygen. Remember that’s the voltage that the chemical exerts against the surrounding material. In the case of MMS it has an oxidation potential of .95 volts, and oxygen 1.3 volts. This means that it can penetrate deeper into the tissues without being used up getting down to where the pathogen lives. And because of the different construction of the outer shell of pathogens, MMS explodes killing the pathogen on contact. It blows a hole in the outer layer. No pathogen has ever developed a resistance to Chlorine dioxide over the past 100 years.

    To restate that, MMS (chlorine dioxide) goes into the body and does not do any damage to the tissues of the body because the oxidation potential is not great enough to damage body tissues. If you want to get a little more scientific we can say the ORP (Oxidation Reduction Potential) of the tissues of the body is greater that the oxidation potential of MMS and that the potential exerted on the tissues by MMS is not enough to oxidize the tissues but plenty strong to oxidize the pathogen.
    *These past three paragraphs I’m not going to comment on because I don’t have the knowledge to completely destroy the theory. I’ll leave that to people that know what they’re talking about, as Jim Humble should have done from the beginning.

    The way that the FDA stated it, you might believe that MMS is used in people’s homes as bleach. Nope, that’s not true. MMS is never used in the home by the public. Only in special cases by professional cleaners. Any chemical or mineral is poisonous if used in larger quantities even table salt. MMS is used only about as much as one uses table salt. Salt will kill you just as fast as MMS but you use very little of either one.
    *I’m sorry. Was “special cases by professional cleaners” supposed to make me feel BETTER about it? They call it industrial bleach for a reason, and you’re trying to cover that up by saying it’s used by professional cleaners? Wtf?*

    Now Justin, I hope you can look past that hate you have developed from assuming so many different things. If so, MMS will probably save your life or that of a loved one sometime within the next ten years as statistics tell us everyone faces a life threatening disease sometime within a 10 year period. If you refuse to understand like those who first refuse Pasteur or Penicillin, then of course, you will deserve to die, but I am extremely sorry for the other person if it was someone other than you that had the life threatening disease.
    *Anyone that compares themselves to Fleming or Pasteur is truly difficult to agree with. And especially when in the same sentence they tell me I deserve to die.

    I tried to help you without reaction to the hate. If you cannot have that, I am really sorry. One other point. Hope you remember that MMS chlorine dioxide has been being ingested by people throughout the USA for 80 years. How much initial use and testing would you require. I added a little citric acid. Thousands of people use citric acid. Well, we’ll see. If I now receive another hate letter from you I will not write an more answers to critics using hate.
    *Always throwing that 80 years line out there! If you listen to the interview he did on Righteous Indignation but he said “it’s been sold on the internet for 80 years”.

    As always with love
    Jim Humble
    *With love!? You just told me I deserve to die if I don’t accept your crap as science!*

    It’ll not be whether you won or lost
    But rather, how you played the game.

    • MMS is a scam October 7, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

      Justin — thank you for posting that email.

      Once again NONE of has bothered to look up the chemistry of chlorine dioxide — yes, we have. I understand the chemistry — took University level chemistry, organic chemistry and biochemistry — he is the one who doesn’t understand but for the lay person his explanation seems plausible which is why people need to explain the chemistry to others — which has been done here quite well.

      It may cost 800 bazillion dollars to get approval for a drug but that’s a leap — you need to start with a few clinical trials — doesn’t cost much to do before and after blood tests for viral or bacteria load. Humble hasn’t even done that — or maybe he has and the results showed no difference. So that argument is a bit silly.

      Have 5 million people really downloaded the part 1 of his “book”? Have 2 million people really purchased MMS? That means 2 million people have fallen for this scam and put themselves at risk? How sad and to be bragging about it! Humble sent me a free copy of part 2, it’s a load of crap –more paranoid rantings, more lies, more pseudoscience — not worth the money he charges for it — Hmmm, maybe I should send a copy to the FDA.

      It is now apparent to me that Humble does not understand what the heck he is talking about regarding Cl02 — he is extrapolating what is known about Cl02 and making it seem it acts this way on tissues — No absolutely not. It is doubtful that MMS makes it out of the GI tract into the bloodstream — it certainly has an effect on the GI tract causing nausea and vomiting. I am still waiting how MMS could be selective to only bad bacteria — if you put bad bacteria and what is considered good bacteria to humans in a petrie dish and add some Cl02, you would find all the bacteria dead. Please provide some evidence Mr Humble. He refuses to explains this because he just can’t — for MMS to have any effect on the human body you would have to take it in a quantity that would destroy the pathogens but at the same time would destroy your healthy cells.

      RE: the comments about the uses of Cl02 — it is used in many water purification systems in many communities in North America — those populations are no healthier than any other population

      What is this all about — “Now Justin, I hope you can look past that hate you have developed from assuming so many different things. If so, MMS will probably save your life or that of a loved one sometime within the next ten years as statistics tell us everyone faces a life threatening disease sometime within a 10 year period. If you refuse to understand like those who first refuse Pasteur or Penicillin, then of course, you will deserve to die, but I am extremely sorry for the other person if it was someone other than you that had the life threatening disease.” The usual snake oil salesman ruse — scare tactics. Did he just indirectly state that people deserve to die if they don’t use MMS? What an inflated ego — comparing himself to Pasteur or Penicillan.

      And this “I tried to help you without reaction to the hate. If you cannot have that, I am really sorry. One other point. Hope you remember that MMS chlorine dioxide has been being ingested by people throughout the USA for 80 years. How much initial use and testing would you require. I added a little citric acid. Thousands of people use citric acid. Well, we’ll see. If I now receive another hate letter from you I will not write an more answers to critics using hate.” So he added citric acid — does that make it work — no. I wonder why it took people over 80 years to recognize that Cl02 cures everything — hmm -BECAUSE IT DOESN’T. As far as the “hate” goes, I have seen some pretty hateful statements made by Humble especially directed towards Rhys. We don’t hate you Mr Humble, any hate is about what you are doing to people, about the lies you tell, how you treat people who disagree with you, how you treat people who actually tell the truth, about telling parents to give babies MMS, telling people it isn’t dangerous because it’s normal to have nausea and vomiting after MMS when really it’s the person being poisoned. Shame on you.

      The email speaks volumes — just cements my opinion of Humble.

    • MadGav October 7, 2010 at 10:29 pm #

      Looking at those three paragraphs, I suspect that ‘Jim’ is conflating Chlorine Dioxide’s use in water purification with the idea that it can be taken internally.

      Redox Potential (ORP) is simply a measure of how readily a chemical species gains or donates electrons. The more positive the potential, the greater the tendancy for the molecule to accept electrons (and be reduced).

      In general terms, a molecule with a high oxidation potential will take electrons from a molecule with a lower potential. It has nothing to do with tissue penetration and doesn’t begin to explain the claims made for this substance.

      I call bullsh*t!

      • lonechemist October 7, 2010 at 10:49 pm #

        He also ignores that oxygen is kinetically locked in a triplet state so is unable to react with singlet compounds, i.e. pretty much everything, without a something like a transition metal to carry out the spin inversion though single electron transfers.

        But this is irrelevant. The fact Jim is still saying that no-one is checking the chemistry properly yet ignores my response say I do have the qualifications to check it, is telling enough for me.

  71. Josh October 7, 2010 at 3:55 pm #

    Hoy, way to go, Rhys! Found this through MetaFilter.

    Humble’s claims are amazingly bad science, bad logic and bad medicine. I mean, Christ, I last took chemistry in high school, and I can understand both his claims and why his claims are bunk. And by what mechanism would this work on HIV or Crohns? Appeals to popularity don’t demonstrate an argument’s validity.

    Still, just wanted to drop a note to say good on ya for your eloquent and mature handling of the issue.

  72. Zeno October 7, 2010 at 4:13 pm #

    Just heard from Southwark Trading Standards about my complaint about a seller of MMS in the UK, MMS Health.

    Ian de Montford, the owner of MMS Health, has had a visit from Trading Standards Officers and has been given a warning to remove MMS from his website with a deadline of next week. A visit with the police will be scheduled next week if necessary.

    A result! Well done to everyone who submitted complaints!

    One down – how many more to go?

    • Adam October 7, 2010 at 4:43 pm #

      Fantastic news Zeno! Great to see that the “bleachgate” campaign is having tangible results.

      Of course, it will just make some folks all the more sure that there is a conspiracy going on, which Trading Standards are now part of.

  73. Leigh R. October 7, 2010 at 8:22 pm #

    Hi, Rhys. I was curious to see whether this MMS garbage might still being peddled on the shelves of health food stores here in the U.S. under alternate names–and hope to do my own local health food store visit this weekend–but in the meantime, I ran across this Web site that might be of interest or help to you. It is from 2009, but it notes a slew of other names whereby one can search for MMS and where to obtain it. Apparently, these days it could be packaged under the name/brand of “WPD” or “water purification drops.” This (S)CAM site article also has the non-hot-linked sellers of MMS. Some gems from this page are: “Chlorine dioxide takes care of bugs, germs, heavy metals, viruses, MERSA, Swine flu, mercury,etc., by oxidizing the positive ions at the atomic level. Some people feel the ‘die off’ of these anti-life agents.”

    Apologies if you or others already have this information in hand: http://bit.ly/b7aWky

    Finally, glad to see you obliterating the idiotic canard of “you’re just a kid; why should we listen to you” that Mr. Humble is attempting to perpetuate. Keep it up!

    Best regards,
    Leigh

    • Pernille Nylehn October 8, 2010 at 4:05 pm #

      My chemistry is a little rusty: Can lead and mercury be oxidized at room temperature?

      • Pernille Nylehn October 8, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

        Sorry, I mean body temperature.

      • Roland Smith October 18, 2010 at 6:26 pm #

        According to [http://www.chemicool.com/elements/mercury.html#oxidation], mercury doesn’t oxidise much at room termperature. It needs high temperatures to oxidise well. It forms HgO at 350 ℃. Lead oxidises readily at room temperature. If you cut a lead slab you’ll see the freshly cut surface turn dull over time.

  74. Sam October 7, 2010 at 9:35 pm #

    It is no secret, and the public see this even on television, that every year hundreds of thousands get killed from prescription drugs, and millions more will live a drug depended lousy life. This is not a conspiracy. The conspiracy people call this murder.
    The public is not stupid, they will look for, and learn, and research for alternatives, if it is homeopathy , herbs, MMS, The Troy Hurtubise God Light device, etc.
    And I dont think MMS will be taken off the market, not here in the USA anyway people here have the right to choose for themselves,It is called freedom. But why would they take it off the market in any country? And it would be wrong if they will take it off the market in the UK,And dont understand why would anyone would be so joyous about this that they are ready to go out dancing in the streets.?

    • Garg October 7, 2010 at 11:45 pm #

      The Troy Hurrrdurrrtubise Gobbledy Hoobflop? What on earth is that?

    • Simon October 8, 2010 at 1:33 am #

      Oh good grief! Showing your true colours now Sam eh? How about the fact that it’s a poison being a good enough reason to have it “taken off the market”? Forget the FDA eh? Freedom of choice should trump protecting people from being sold poison by quacks, should it?

    • Pernille Nylehn October 8, 2010 at 4:08 pm #

      So, if prescription drugs are killing people, one might as well pour some more poison into the market?

    • jimvj October 18, 2010 at 1:17 pm #

      Yes, most drugs have side effects. That is why they are studied and documented in clinical trials. If they pass muster, they are prescribed when an expert (someone who has studied/practiced science based medicine hopefully) judges that the benefits outweigh the possible downside.

      Only Pollyannas believe that all medicines should be completely free of side effects. Funny thing is many of these Pollyannas have no problem taking “supplements” or “complementary medicines” which have not been similarly studied, and whose composition is often unknown.

    • Paul Morgan October 23, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

      And, of course, the moon is made of green cheese. I know it for a fact ‘cos I saw a video on YouTube that said so, so it must be the truth.
      What???? You’re telling me this isn’t true? Someone lied in a YouTube video? OMG you guys!!!!!
      Seriously, Sam, you’re talking nonsense. Here, we are only interested in evidence.

  75. Sam October 8, 2010 at 2:34 am #

    Simon
    How can MMS be a poison, if millions of people around the world using it, and get cured from serious health problems, and go back to work.? And millions of people used bleach, my self included, for decades in country well water.Who told you that MMS is a poison? somebody must of you that. If you drink the MMS without activating it, and without mixing it with water, I m sure it will harm you, but if it is used properly it is beneficial. This is not rocket science, anyone can understand it. I m sure you would not drink vinegar strait from the bottle, you would poison your self, but you use vinegar in your soup. But if you think MMS is no good for you, dont use it.

    • mms is a scam October 8, 2010 at 2:49 am #

      Dear me Sam — it’s not rocket science but you have no understanding and your arguments are illogical. You sound exactly like Humble but then again a lot of his minions spew garbage with little or no thought or proof attached. Rather then regurgitating the same anecdotes provide some concrete proof that MMS is not a poison and is effective.

      You do understand dumping a bottle of Javex in well water doesn’t do much — it dissipates rapidly, it kills any pathogens that are present at the time, people have shocked their wells for ages but nobody has mentioned any health benefits exept not getting nasty bacterial infections — that’s not rocket science either and you don’t seem to “get” the point.

  76. Sam October 8, 2010 at 4:46 am #

    MMS
    I m very careful what I use, and drink and eat.I even disagree with all the Rabbis, that salmon is a kosher fish. In my opinion salmon is not a kosher fish.I never drink milk, not even in coffee or tea, i would never be a good Molokan, in the Molokan religion. And I would never even use more than one aspirin, maybe one a month. But I have no problem using MMS.

    And in my opinion, if anyone think MMS is a poison, or if they feel it would be no good for them, they should never use MMS.

    • MadGav October 8, 2010 at 7:27 am #

      You’re right, Sam:

      http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/CH/chlorine_dioxide.html

      Here’s the data sheet for Chlorine Dioxide, just to clear up any misunderstandings or confusions. Hopefully you’ll agree that it *is* a poison.

      Personally I don’t put enough vinegar on my chips to cause vomiting and diarrhoea…

      There is no evidence to support your suggestion that MMS is beneficial (unless you’re using it to purify water).

      It’s not a matter of choice, it is a matter of *informed* choice and that can only happen once all the *facts* are on the table.

  77. Sam October 8, 2010 at 6:58 pm #

    MadGav

    I would also like to see All the *facts* on the table, But so far I dont see people getting poisoned, and that is one fact. And if anyone take too much MMS, or over dose, or just want to stop the action of MMS, all they have to do is ; drink a glass of orange juice, or something with vitamin C in it. If anyone over dose on aspirin, or any prescription drug, they would have to rush to the emergency. And I agree with you, MMS is a poison if it it not used properly, but sugar, salt, vinegar, etc is also a poison if not used properly, for some people
    even peanuts.

    • MadGav October 8, 2010 at 7:45 pm #

      The UK Food Standard’s Agency have issued a warning against using the substance (due to adverse side effects), as have the FDA and Health Canada (who are more specific about the adverse reactions patient’s have suffered).

      And there’s still no evidence that this stuff does anything other than purify water!

  78. Sam October 11, 2010 at 9:30 pm #

    In my opinion the cat is out of the bag.
    Just over a month ago, There was a warning on all televisions and news papers, that multivitamins are dangerous for the public, and only small children, pregnant women, and old people should use multivitamins.
    If it is dangerous to the public,Is it not dangerous for small small children, pregnant women and old people?
    So where is any credibility here? This makes no sense at all. And in my opinion all the warnings about MMS have no credibility and makes no sense. Millions of people using MMS with good results.

    • Al__S October 11, 2010 at 10:01 pm #

      Sam sam sam. What warning about multivitamins? I remember no such warning. If there was a major public warning issued, it’ll be archived on all the news sites. Please, post a link to a credible source (CNN, BBC, Guardian etc*). It really shouldn’t be too hard. Otherwise frankly it’ll rather come across as if you’re just making shit up.

      Of course, taking multivitamins is of dubious health benefit, but that’s a whole different bag of crazy.

      MMS is on its way to be banned in the EU it seems. Game over?

      • Sam October 12, 2010 at 12:49 am #

        Al__S

        I dont make shit up.
        It was on CNN, on FOX NEWS, on GLOBAL,on CKOH and in magazines, and news papers.
        But I dont think it matters to you, as you say that, taking multivitamins is of a dubious health benefit, and a bag of crazy, for you. So dont use vitamins, Or MMS.

        In my opinion it will be wrong if MMS will be banned in the EU.
        Here in the USA people have the freedom to choose for themselves and it will never be banned.

      • MMS is a scam October 12, 2010 at 1:45 am #

        Sam — You said “October 12, 2010 at 12:49 am # Al__S

        I dont make shit up.
        It was on CNN, on FOX NEWS, on GLOBAL,on CKOH and in magazines, and news papers.
        But I dont think it matters to you, as you say that, taking multivitamins is of a dubious health benefit, and a bag of crazy, for you. So dont use vitamins, Or MMS.

        In my opinion it will be wrong if MMS will be banned in the EU.
        Here in the USA people have the freedom to choose for themselves and it will never be banned.”

        I just googled fox and CNN, you are talking shit because there are no warnings about multivitamins.

        You actually don’t have the freedom to chooose MMS in the US anymore because the FDA has mandated it not be sold in stores or over the internet. I don’t know why you think it hasn’t been banned because it has — check out websites that used to sell it — the product is no longer available. If the government had no retraints on people selling quacky useless products that do nothing except lighten your wallet, then we would all be in trouble. When a product is being sold as a cure-all and is a poison at the same time, this needs to be addressed and the public needs to know the truth.

        Give it up. You have no understanding of the science behind MMS, no convincing arguments, just a lot of anecdotal crap that means zero.

  79. Sam October 12, 2010 at 4:53 am #

    MMS

    AS I see it just now Dr Sanjay Gupta back pedaled on multivitamin.

    Sanjay Gupta Pedals Backward….Then Forward

    By Barbara Berkeley

    The first episode of public backpedaling on vitamin supplementation probably occurred during Sanjay Gupta’s segment on CNN’s Situation Room Wednesday evening. Reporting on the results of a recent study that associated multivitamin use with an elevated risk of breast cancer, Gupta dared to venture that we should be cautious about vitamin use. He spoke to the fact that the great majority of the many studies on vitamins do not show benefit. He also said something that made me cheer: removing a vitamin from its food source and concentrating it many times may not work; may even be harmful. Bravo for Sanjay.

    But by later that day, the CNN website had thought better of Dr. Gupta’s comments. After warning readers about the shortcomings of this study (and there certainly are many), it carefully decided to cover all bases.

    The FDA closed one seller of MMS, But the FDA acted illegally and the seller is back, or will be back selling MMS. The FDA will be sued in court.

    I know MMS from my own experience, and I know the benefits, and side effects. And you are right, I dont know the science behind MMS. I dont think Jim knows everything about MMS, but all other scientists dont know everything about MMS. Science, and scientists have limitations.
    And I dont see people getting poisoned,And nobody proved it so far that MMS will not cure malaria using the MMS protocol, and nobody proved the dangers of MMS
    WE all know the side effects, and we also know how to avoid it. Millions of people using it, and if it was dangerous, why would they use it?

    • MMS is a scam October 12, 2010 at 5:44 am #

      Sam. More than one US site has been ordered to stop selling MMS — stop spreading falsehoods. Who exactly is going to sue the FDA and for what — do you not know the laws regarding food and supplements — you might try reading them — anybody that sues doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

      Regarding vitamins — has the FDA stated they are dangerous and poisonous. Why are you even comparing vitamins to MMS — vitamins are supposed to replace what may be missing from the diet, as MMS is not missing from our diet, you really can’t compare the two.

      It’s really hard to take any of your comments seriously because you believe drinking javex water from a well gave you good health even though javex dissipates after twenty four hours — it kills bugs in the water, it doesn’t provide good health, it prevents people from getting sick from bugs that are in the water. By the way, javex contains chlorine and mms contains chloride dioxide — two different chemicals with different properties.

      Your experiences with mms have been a placebo effect. Jim Humble has no concept how MMS works because he keeps making false statements about its selectivity. I think he has deluded himself into believing that he understands Cl02 but he doesn’t. Unfortunately, his descriptions sound reasonable to some but the truth is he just doesn’t have a clue. He is a liar and this has been proven. He photoshops himself into pictures. He wears a white labcoat to give himself an appearance that he might be doctor-like. He is extremely rude. But the most insidious thing of all he promises cures where there are none and he has tricked people like yourself into following him.

      People have gotten very sick from using MMS — the nausea, vomiting, diarrhea is the result of the body reacting against a poison. Nobody has proven that MMS cures Malaria — if Humble Bumble is going to make these claims then he needs to provide proof. He won’t though because he can’t and he hides in Mexico and the Dominican Republic because he is a coward that won’t defend himself to people who want proof in the US. How do you know millions of people have used mms– this comes from Humble and his minions — I have read hundreds of accounts on different forums where MMS has done nothing for people or has made them sick. If you look at HIV forums, there is no mention of MMS — Humble says it cures HIV infection — if it did these forums would be lit up with the news.

      IF YOU ARE SO POSITIVE THAT MMS WORKS — PROVE IT WITH SOME REAL SCIENCE. Personal anecdotes are useless because people see what they want to see — it’s called cognitive bias — a malady which you greatly suffer from.

      • Sam October 12, 2010 at 6:48 am #

        MMS

        People have the right to choose here in the USA, and Like i wrote before, nobody proved MMS is dangerous, or it would not cure malaria. So who is suffering from cognitive bias?
        A lot of accusations.

        And I m not convinced.

      • Rhys Morgan October 12, 2010 at 2:15 pm #

        Sam, it is not up to us to prove that MMS doesn’t work.
        It’s up to Jim Humble to prove it does.
        People might have the right to choose, but Jim Humble does not have the right to go selling his product as a panacea, saying it’ll cure everything.
        Also, it’s not a real choice when they don’t know the real facts. When you know the facts, you can make an informed decision.
        By the way, chlorine dioxide (activated MMS) is a neurotoxin and is known to impair thyroid function. Given that it doesn’t cure anything, I’d say the risk/benefit ratio is infinitely too much.

  80. MMS is a scam October 12, 2010 at 6:33 am #

    Here’s an intersting news article re: Humble

    ‘Doctors’ fined
    Written by Watipaso Mzungu Jnr
    Sunday, 28 February 2010
    A court in Balaka has fined an American herbalist Jim Humble and his Malawian assistant Rodrick Bowa K50,000 for dispensing medicines without a license and claiming that their free herbal medicines were a cure for Aids, police spokesperson Titani Chadwala has confirmed.
    “Jim Humble and his accomplice appeared before the magistrate court here where they were convicted and fined for dispensing the medicines without license,” Chadwala said.

    He said the court further ordered that the two should stop administering their concoctions to patients.

    Poisons, Medicines and Pharmacies Board (PMPB) Acting Registrar Aaron Sosola told The Sunday Times that he deployed his team of inspectors after hearing rumours that a registered herbalist Stanley Kaliati was prescribing an alleged Aids curing drug on people.

    However, Kaliati, who was operating from Chifundo Herbal Clinic–a registered outfit run by the Catholic Church in Balaka—could not disclose the chemical composition of his “poisonous” drug.

    Sosola said when the inspectors quizzed Kaliati about the drug, he claimed he was given by the American herbalist.

    Kaliati’s Chifundo Herbal Clinic grows and has been administering herbal medicine for several years.

    In fact, Sosola’s team of inspectors found people chopping herbs outside Kaliati’s clinic while the “doctor’s” office had shelves filled with different types of herbs.

    Kaliati said told the PMPB officials that the medicinal products he was administering on people living with HIV and Aids was MMS (miracle mineral solution) from Humble, who also taught them how to prescribe and dispense the drug.

    “He said Humble started his treatment programme in some of the country’s prisons,” said Sosola in a telephone interview from Lilongwe.

    “Although he denied that MMS was cure for HIV and Aids our inspectors found CD4 count forms at his premises. This may mean that his denial was not based on truth.”

    The inspectors’ report indicates that MMS was made by dissolving citric acid and since lemons are seasonal and scarce, Kaliati was dissolving sodium hydrochloride to come up with MMS.

    “Kaliati himself denied using chlorine, but empty chlorine containers were found lying down on the floor. Immediately, the inspectors called the police to come and arrest him,” Sosola explained.

    “Although he claims that his drugs are made from herbs, the truth is that they are not herbal medicines at all. The solution is very hazardous to human beings because, for example, hydrochloride is not for internal but external use only and can kill if consumed.”

    Humble declined to talk to The Sunday Times, but Kaliati maintained that their drug cures Aids and that they were in the process of applying for a license.

    “MMS is a real cure for Aids. The only problem we have is that we’re dispensing it without a license,” he said.

    “We want to apply for a license now and we’ll invite the media to cover the launch.”

    But Sosola said yesterday they cannot allow it because the drug is poisonous and hazardous to human life.

    Humble and Bowa were found guilty on three counts of dispensing medicines without a license, dispensing medicines at unregistered premises and that the dispenser was not a qualified practitioner.

    Meanwhile, there is no cure for and Aids-blighted Malawi is supplying over 250,000 HIV positive citizens with free anti-retroviral drugs (ARVs).

    ARVs do not cure Aids but help to boost the patient’s immune system, thereby prolonging their lives.

    The HIV and Aids prevalence rate hovers around 12 percent in Malawi.

    —————————————————–

    • Sam October 12, 2010 at 10:19 am #

      This article is an eye opener. The Dr said that they were using MMS, and MMS is a real cure for AIDS, just needed a license.
      But some authority called it a hazardous material, and denied a license, and thousands of people with AIDS will die because they were denied a cure. Is this not murder?
      The MMS and the cure is denied, but they want to extend their life with drugs.
      Why not prove first, that MMS will not cure AIDS before they denied this cure for thousands of people? They were in a process of applying for a license and were inviting the media to cover the launch.
      In my opinion something is wrong here.

      • MMS is a scam October 12, 2010 at 1:50 pm #

        First of all NO doctor said MMS is a real cure for AIDS. The person who said that is a registered herbalist — probably doesn’t understand anything about MMS. You don’t just apply for a license for a medicine in any country and get one– clinical trials are involved.

        IF you believe that MMS can cure AID’s there is no hope for you — can it cure kaposi’s sarcoma, liver damage, and all the other things that go along with AIDS. There is no cure being denied here because MMS can’t cure anything and this exactly why Humble got arrested. He made unfounded medical claims about a product which just happens to be a poison. I wonder where all the people he “cured” were — why did nobody support his claims?

        Could you please provide scientific proof to back up your statements about MMS or STFU. Or at least show us some direct evidence of anybody being cured of malaria (Humble stated he cured over 75000 — where’s the documentation), where are all the newspaper accounts of this fabulous man curing thousands of malaria and AIDS — there aren’t any — I guess you just can’t let go of your fixed false beliefs about MMS and Humble himself. Do you know what a fixed false belief is — a delusion.

      • MadGav October 12, 2010 at 6:35 pm #

        Wow!

        Proof if it were ever needed that denial isn’t just a river in Africa.

        Sam, please try to understand where the burden of proof lies when making unbelievable claims for common substances.

        Show us it works (using something more significant that testamonials), but don’t insult our intelligence but suggesting that it’s up to us to refute such outlandish claims when Jim and his minions have made no attempt to offer anything even remotely close to evidence.

      • Pernille Nylehn October 13, 2010 at 5:01 pm #

        Jim Humble, or anyone else, haven’t bothered to apply for a license. He smuggled his poison into several African countries and gave it to trusting natives who probably thought the white man was a real doctor.

        He in fact experimented on poor African people.

        Have you heard about Dr. Mengele, Sam?

  81. Zeno October 12, 2010 at 4:28 pm #

    I have just been informed by Southwark Trading Standards that http://www.mms-health.com has now been completely taken down.

    However, we will be watching to ensure it does not reappear.

    All credit for this goes to Rhys – thanks to him, the public are protected from this dangerous scam.

  82. Sam October 12, 2010 at 5:16 pm #

    MMS
    You are right, he is a registered, licensed herbalist, a professional, who works with AIDS patients everyday, And I would think there is maybe a reason why he said, that
    MMS is a real cure for AIDS. Maybe from his own experience?
    So who is delusional here?

    • Rhys Morgan October 12, 2010 at 5:29 pm #

      Sam, you STILL haven’t provided any evidence for MMS.
      If you continue to spam my blog without any proper evidence for MMS, I will block you from commenting.

      • MMS is a scam October 12, 2010 at 6:11 pm #

        A licensed herbalist???? I didn’t know that MMS was a herb, the last time I looked, MMS is a chemical. Does Humble Bumble bo Fumble work with AIDs patients everyday — really? In what hospital, in what hospice, where? And where are all the reports of cures? You seem pretty knowledgeable about what Jimmy boy does on a daily basis — sock puppet?

        Did you know that HIV, a retrovirus, injects itself into the DNA — every single cell has DNA — if MMS were to destroy HIV, it would also have to destroy the cells and you would die — my god, you really don’t know what you are talking about.

        Provide some proof to back up what you are saying — people can provide a ton of scientific proof why MMS can’t cure anything but you can’t prove one iota of evidence to support your claims. I certainly hope you are done spamming here soon with you illogical statements and ridiculous anecdotes

        Two options — provide some proof or get blocked.

      • joe wise October 14, 2010 at 5:16 am #

        Rhys,
        You unwittingly do damage to a good kind supportive group of people by not understanding that everyone is already aware of the little things you cry out about. You are a silly little boy with a tiny bit of knowledge. One day, when you realize there is more to life than meets the eye, you will regret your ignorance.

      • MadGav October 16, 2010 at 11:27 am #

        @joe wise

        Forgive me, but I may have misunderstood the point you were trying to get across (other than insulting Rhys because he hasn’t been alive as long as you have?)

        You seem to be saying that “everyone is already aware” that MMS has no health benefits and is in fact a toxic substance that shouldn’t be taken internally (that being the gist of those ‘little things’ you mentioned being cried out about).

        That seems at odds with some of the other comments you make… perhaps you could clarify?

  83. Sam October 12, 2010 at 9:10 pm #

    MMS

    If you read the article, that you posted, you should know, it was Kaliati, not Jim Humble talking to The Sunday Times.

    Humble declined to talk to The Sunday Times, but Kaliati maintained that their drug cures Aids and that they were in the process of applying for a license.

    “MMS is a real cure for Aids. The only problem we have is that we’re dispensing it without a license,” he said.

    “We want to apply for a license now and we’ll invite the media to cover the launch.”

    And maybe you should also ask yourself a question , Do you enjoy bashing, and calling people names?
    I hope you enjoy your life.

    And, in this blog, is bashing, calling people names,and accusations.The credibility here is ZERO.

    And I have nothing more to say here.

    • MMS is a scam October 12, 2010 at 10:20 pm #

      Sam — Do I enjoy bashing and calling people names? — not as much as Jim Humble appears too.

      The credibility on this blog is excellent — Rhys has put together a coherent and credible blog with many people coming here to thank him and to support him with further information.

      The only non-credible posts I have read come from you.

      This is what always happens — the MMS minions come along and make all sorts of statements and as soon as people start asking for credible proof — they turn tail and run and usually accuse anybody who doesn’t believe in MMS to be non-credible and all other sorts of things.

      Bye Bye.

      Rhys is doing something very important here exposing Jim Humble and mms. Good for him. Keep it up Rhys as you are HUGELY credible.

    • MadGav October 13, 2010 at 7:30 am #

      Well, I did read the article (rather than selectively quote-mining it as you seem to have done, Sam) and Stanley Kaliati denies using ‘chlorine’ as well as insisting that MMS is herbal.

      It’s not completely clear from the article, but from Aaron Sosola’s comments it appears that Stanley Kaliati also denied that MMS was a cure for HIV/AIDS.

      “Although he denied that MMS was cure for HIV and Aids our inspectors found CD4 count forms at his premises. This may mean that his denial was not based on truth.”

      And I think I’ll leave the last word to Aaron Sosola again (Poisons, Medicines and Pharmacies Board (PMPB) Acting Registrar):

      Sosola said yesterday they cannot allow it (licensing MMS) because the drug is poisonous and hazardous to human life.

      Nuf Said?

  84. Justin Satov October 16, 2010 at 3:11 am #

    Alright, so I had sent Jim a reply to his reply. And I got another email from him. I won’t post either of them unless someone would like me to, but here is my absolute favorite excerpt from the gem that is his email, in its original form, completely unchanged.

    “I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN MORE PEOPLE RECOVER FROM WHAT IS CONSIDERED TO BE INCURABLE DISEASES THAN ANY OTHER MAN, EVER. I DON’T HAVE TO PROVE THAT. EVEN MY SAYING THAT SHOULD HAVE DOZENS OF PEOPLE TRYING TO PROVE OR DISPROVE IT, BECAUSE IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT EVERY TO BE UNCOVERED. OH I HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE ON MY SIDE, MORE THAN A MILLION, SO I DON’T WORRY. BUT PEOPLE SUCH AS YOU ALL DOWN THROUGH HISTORY WHO HAVE ALWAYS FOUGHT EVERY NEW ADVANCEMENT OF MANKIND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE EVIL ONES.”

    I don’t even think I have to say anything about that. And again, for Sam’s benefit, I must reiterate that this man is a liar. He told me, and several others, that he’s “written 5 books” and that has been confirmed to be false.

    @Joe Wise, your comment is ridiculous, and your name makes me laugh because it’s amusingly similar to Jim Humble. Anything to it? I doubt it. But fun to think about.

    • MMS is a scam October 16, 2010 at 2:04 pm #

      I guess the use of CAPS by Jim makes everything he says true. What a crazy ranty man, I am beginning to think he suffers from a few different psychiatric disorders. He seems to be getting worse over time, I wonder if drinking all that bleach has caused some brain damage.

  85. MMS is a scam October 16, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    Name change for MMS. From Jim Humble.

    “The word Miracle phases out and the word Master replaces it.

    Well, that’s it. The MMS remains the same, just the first word changes from Miracle to Master. “Master Mineral Solution” is now the name of MMS. I know, I know, there are a lot of people who after using MMS like the name miracle, because that is what it is. I like the name Miracle too, but many people have asked me to change the name and others have told me that they didn’t use it just because of the name “Miracle.” They say it sounds too much like snake oil. Many people have already told me that they prefer the new name change. The FDA and others will play on our name change for a while but eventually that will die out as MMS becomes known as the “Master Mineral of the Third Millennium.”

    And this new name tells what it is, too. It’s the Master Mineral of the Third Millennium. It certainly cannot be any less than that for the human race at this time. Of course, many of those who have not seen it work will doubt me, but none who have used it and have saved lives will doubt. MMS is the Master Mineral Solution for the human race at this time. One might consider that I should say, “The Master Mineral Solution of health.” But no, it has saved more than a hundred thousand lives world wide so far and it is important to the human race in all phases of living as one cannot design cars or fly airliners if he is sick. Someday, hopefully soon, there will be dozens of master minerals and MMS will just be one of a line up of Master Minerals. Until that time comes, however, MMS remains the most important mineral known to the human race.

    And do you see? That’s where our Church comes in. The Genesis II Church of Health and Healing. This Master Mineral is used by our Church as the Cleansing Water for our Sacraments. The goal of our church is, “a World Without Diseases”. Our church heals all who are sick at no charge. Of course, we like all churches, will accept donations to help the continued healing of the sick. Our duty to mankind is to heal the sick and we have only the message, “Do Good Deeds, heal with MMS, and always do what is right.” Bring us your sick, and even those who the Medical doctors have given up on, as we never give up! This includes Cancer, Hep. C, and all life threatening diseases as well as so-called, “incurable diseases”. We now have more than 100 trained Health Minister in over 40 countries throughout the world.

    I am writing this newsletter as I prepare to leave Germany where I have just finished teaching a one week seminar on the use of MMS for healing all sicknesses. A friend visited me from Holland while I am here and he said the Government of Holland has now banned the use of MMS in Holland, but there are many people objecting to the idea. He said one hospital decided that the write up was so one way and negative that they obtained some MMS and tried it and the had really good results. They are continuing to use MMS on a secretive basis.”

    Call it what you want Mr Humble, snake oil is snake oil.

    • Justin Satov October 16, 2010 at 11:17 pm #

      That scares me.

      I don’t know what’s worse – the fact that he believes so strongly that he has “discovered” the greatest thing in the history of human kind, or the fact that other people believe it.
      I sincerely hope that story about the hospital in Holland is as true as many of the other things to come out of the mouth of that man.

    • MikeHypercube October 16, 2010 at 11:29 pm #

      Fascinating. I wonder if the name change has anything to do with the fact that a number of us identified “Miracle” as being an appropriate name for the absurd claim that the oxidation action of this bleach selectively targets disease cells, cancer cells and parasites (3 claims in fact).

      Humble explains a detailed scientific process and then has one step in there titled “here a miracle happens”, so I can see why calling it “Miracle” Mineral Solution might be too close to the truth for Humble to want to keep using it.

      • MMS is a scam October 17, 2010 at 1:28 am #

        Changing the name doesn’t change the ingredients. The FDA, Health Canada etc will come down hard on companies trying to sell MMS, no matter what the name. I must remember to send a few emails tomorrow (FDA, Health Canada)about this name change.

        Humble sounds crazier by the minute. I really do believe he is deluded.

    • marty October 18, 2010 at 11:33 pm #

      He might be a raving loon, but if he’s set up his own Church he is doing it for tactical reasons. Tax evasion would be one, and hiding behind religion would be another: “How dare you say our holy sacramental water is a poison!!!”
      He may be sidestepping the FDA with this.
      I just googled “Genesis II Church of Health and Healing” and … oh dear…

  86. Ed Darrell October 18, 2010 at 11:14 am #

    He then goes on to say about how big pharma won’t sponsor studies into things like chlorine dioxide and Low Dose Naltrexone (another forte of D Bergy) because the cost of a medical trial would offset any profit from a generic drug, because it can’t be patented. OK, fair point.

    Then seek funding to do the research under the Orphan Drug Act in the U.S.

    Why aren’t the promoters using the Orphan Drug Act? Because they know the stuff doesn’t work.

  87. Ryan October 18, 2010 at 11:27 am #

    Hi Rhys,

    Sorry to hear about your treatement. But good on you for sticking to your guns. There’s so much bs out there sometimes it can be difficult to see the trees for the leaves.

  88. Nick Boorer October 18, 2010 at 11:47 am #

    Rhys,

    Have been catching up with podcasts and heard you on a couple of them and have been so incredibly impressed with you. You’re fantastic. The world needs more people like you. Keep up the good work!

  89. jimvj October 18, 2010 at 1:10 pm #

    Bravo Rhys! Not just for your honesty and skepticism, but also for your courage to stand up to all the verbal bullies.

    One reason that woo succeeds is that desperate sufferers of chronic diseases start to believe that if they doubt the woo, it will not work – i.e. they get convinced that their commitment (complicity, in reality) is a requirement for the woo to work. Once they cross that line, there is little hope of pulling them back.

    But brave & honest voices like yours will prevent others from crossing over.

  90. Steve Bowen October 18, 2010 at 2:21 pm #

    They told me they’d used homeopathy on their horse and that horses couldn’t possible have the placebo effect.

    I have lost count of how many times I’ve heard this from advocates of homeopathy. Either there’s an awful lot of gullible horses out there or it’s become a sort of urban (rural?) myth in homeopathic circles. Funny thing is it is always a horse, never the pet rabbit or budgie.

    • Kristjan Wager October 22, 2010 at 8:39 pm #

      Actually, as Ben Goldacre explains in Bad Science, animals can also be fooled by placebo

  91. mike October 18, 2010 at 5:21 pm #

    This Sam guy cracks me up. Not only does he use MMS (which anyone trained in chemistry, medicine, or not-being-a-dumbass will tell you is a dangerous bleach with no possibility of pharmacalogical action), but he uses is for an OFF-LABEL purpose! He believes in this stuff so much that he has made up his own use for it! Does it help regrow destroyed tissue? Clear up infections? Improve eyesight? Does it do anyhing testable?

    NOPE! It “gives [him] energy”.

    Jesus christ*, man, mild pain, depression, anxiety, fatigue, are all easily susceptible to the placebo effect. Just by anticipating improvement, one can percieve improvement. No, you are not immune to the placebo effect (though it seems that those most susceptible are least likely to believe themselves to be). Despite what you might think, you are not the most impartial observer of your own internal state. This is why we have an organized system of blinded testing to see if a treatment works.

    Then, in an amazing display of post hoc rationalization he comes to the conclusion that he was unwittingly following the MMS protocol HIS WHOLE LIFE. How, you ask, did he come to that conclusion? Why, he thought back to his days on the old family farm (also, who wants to bet this lower didn’t grow up on a farm and is parroting some sort of MMS cannard?) when these veritable supermen drank bleach all morning and performed stunning feats of strength all afternoon; feats inconceivable to the average city-dweller like baling hay and lifting things! And of course it was the BLEACH that made these farmers more capable at these tasks than city folks and not the fact that THEY GREW UP ON A F**KING FARM (just like how lattes make you better at doing spreadsheets).

    Poor, poor deluded Sam. The man doesn’t just lack evidence, he wouldn’t recognize it if he saw it.

    *just a little blasphemy for good measure, but it does always seem that these woo peddlers are extremely god-soaked. I think the fact that “miracles” are already an established part of their worldview makes them likely to accept just about anything. It gives them a backdoor when confronted by evidence.

  92. Roland Smith October 18, 2010 at 6:42 pm #

    Rhys,

    Thank you for speaking up. It is the decent thing to do IMO.

    Don’t be disheartened. You’re fighting the good fight. It’s just an uphill struggle as most sceptics before you have discovered. :-)

    As Robert Kennedy once said: “Fear not the path of truth, for the lack of people walking on it.”

  93. Andrew October 18, 2010 at 8:28 pm #

    Kid, I have just one thing to say, awesome. And you’re made even more awesome by the fact that you used huzzah in this post, seriously keep up the good fight.

    (I defend my right to use the word ‘kid’ in a non-pejorative sense, because 15 is still younger than 22 so HA)

  94. kayumochi October 19, 2010 at 4:57 pm #

    You may want to take into consideration the statement by the well-known American politician Ron Paul (I heard him say it at a meeting in Washington DC earlier this year): “The FDA is a large corrupt organization and will probably lie to you.”

    I know nothing of MMS but I would caution you about “straightforward” FDA warnings and alerts: they are often politically motivated.

    • MadGav October 19, 2010 at 7:52 pm #

      You know nothing of MMS but you (allegedly) overheard a politician I’ve never heard of make a disparaging comment about the FDA?

      Oh well, drinking bleach is perfectly okay then – sorry about all the fuss.

      Boy do I feel sheepish (baaah!)

      • kayumochi October 19, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

        Sorry friend, your attacks will fall short with me. I am not advocating the consumption of anything. My point was about the political nature of the FDA.

      • MadGav October 19, 2010 at 8:39 pm #

        It seems strange that you chose the comment section of a blog post discussing the dangers of MMS to voice your opinion on the FDA.

        Perhaps you’re in the wrong place?

      • kayumochi October 19, 2010 at 8:59 pm #

        Perhaps you missed the reference to the FDA in the post.

      • MadGav October 19, 2010 at 9:25 pm #

        Not at all, I was just wondering how you happened upon this particular blog and decided to share your insights.

        Although I do note that someone with a very similar nickname to your does frequent mercola.com as well a posting in this link (http://community.wddty.com/blogs/lynnemctaggart/archive/2010/08/02/Not-my-problem.aspx) to expression your concerns over the FDA going after MMS.

      • kayumochi October 19, 2010 at 9:31 pm #

        Not quite sure what all the bother is about from you friend. I stumbled across this blog as one often stumbles across blogs during a search for something specific.

      • MadGav October 19, 2010 at 9:36 pm #

        A lot of sock puppets come through, many of them warning how dangerous the FDA is… it’s also not unheard of for them to start proceedings by saying – “I know nothing of this MMS… but…”

      • kayumochi October 19, 2010 at 9:50 pm #

        No, I have never posted here before. Maybe MMS is as bad as you say and should be taken off the market. I came across this blog during an unrelated search. I am familiar with the term “MMS” and the fact that it is under attack. That is all I know. I also posted a reply in another thread today highlighting the fact that the European Natural Foods Industry has been slowly strangled over the last decade due to pressure from the Medical and Pharma establishment. THAT is my concern, not what happens to MMS per se. Your efforts here may rid Europe of MMS but may also further erode consumer choice in an area where it is already extremely limited compared to the States.

      • MadGav October 19, 2010 at 9:58 pm #

        So trying to stop people from peddling bleach as a cure for HIV, cancer and pretty much everything else might further erode customer choice in the European natural foods market?

      • kayumochi October 20, 2010 at 12:29 am #

        You may want to consider that the baby is being thrown out with the bath water, once again.

      • kayumochi October 20, 2010 at 11:43 am #

        You are missing the larger picture here Andrew: I may not like someone abusing their freedom of speech to attach others and propagate hate but if I seek to diminish their freedom to speak out I am diminishing my own freedom of speech. Likewise, I may think a particular healing modality unwise, but if I seek to limit another’s choices I am ultimately limiting my own.

        The EU already has the tightest restrictions in the world on vitamins and supplements and this campaign against MMS, whether justified or not, is only giving those that seek to tighten restrictions further the justification they need to do so.

      • Al October 20, 2010 at 12:45 pm #

        kayumochi- your attempts to liken banning MMS to an attack on free speech are disengenuous.

        This isn’t about restricting something that is ineffective. This is about banning something that is both incapable of doing what is claimed and that is actively harmful to health.

    • Andrew October 20, 2010 at 12:46 am #

      Ron Paul… so.. your “the FDA is corrupt” source is a politician who
      A) Wants to eliminate the federal reserve.
      B) Bring back the gold standard.
      C) Is actually against net neutrality.
      D) Denies climate change…

      I could really go on listing the number of reasons Paul is a nutter. And, considering that sodium chlorate, which is what the MMS website specifically says is their active agent, is actually a bleaching agent, you can be pretty fucking sure that just because Ron Paul doubts the motives of the FDA, that doesn’t make this advisory any less damning.

      Plus, the FDA isn’t the only organization to come out with this warning, this came out before the FDA warning.
      http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/_2010/2010_74-eng.php

      Seriously, Ron Paul gives me the creeps. Though, at least he’s better than his son.

      • kayumochi October 20, 2010 at 1:57 am #

        You are right Andrew, the FDA only has the interests of the people in mind and is not a political organization at all. Sigh … this bleach isn’t the issue really (and certainly not Ron Paul)… let me give you two EU examples:

        Vitamin D: scientific research is increasingly showing that Vitamin D is needed in far greater amounts for human health than has been previously thought. In fact, a deficiency is linked to a number of autoimmune diseases (including Crohn’s Disease) and cancer. Not only are governments NOT calling for higher doses but regulations in the EU are denying people access to high-dose over-the-counter Vitamin D. So here we have a case backed by science, but access to this vitamin is heavily regulated. Does this make sense to you?

        On the other hand, there is Essiac Tea. While there was promising research carried out in the early days of this herbal remedy, current research doesn’t show it offers any relief to cancer patients. Try shipping some to Europe these days from America and watch it be returned (this wasn’t the case a few years ago). Yet the tea isn’t toxic at all … unlike MMS one cannot make the case that Essiac Tea is toxic … I understand that it shouldn’t be marketed as a cancer treatment but to ban a non-toxic herbal tea for import into the EU? Does that make sense to you? I have tried to send this to friends in Germany along with high-dose Coenzyme Q10 only to have it sent back. They are not happy but there is nothing I can do.

        Do you stand for personal choice in health care or not? That is the real issue.

      • Andrew October 20, 2010 at 2:24 am #

        kayumochi, no, the bleach really IS the issue here.

        A “drug” is being advocated by people that is nothing but a bleach solution. People take this, and they suffer damage because they’re ingesting bleach.

        That’s all that’s going on here. It has nothing to do with Ron Paul disliking the FDA, it doesn’t even really have to do with trusting the FDA at all, it has to do with the fact that people are peddling a bleach solution to unsuspecting victims.

        The lack of vitamin D is a completely different issue, and should be taken up in a different discussion. It has nothing to do with the fact that people are peddling a bleach solution to unsuspecting victims. I am well aware that vitamin D is beneficial, as there are a lot of scientific peer reviewed papers out showing increased health statistics with increased vitamin D intake.

        … That has nothing to do with the fact that the MMS solution is bleach.

        And prohibiting a non-toxic tea doesn’t make sense, no, but that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT MARKETING A BLEACH SOLUTION IS WRONG.

        Did you take a moment to look at what this blog post is about? It’s not about “how much we trust the government to always do right”, it’s about “this substance is a bleach solution, it hurts people, it will cause damage, and is being marketed as a cure for cancer, aids, and even the common cold, but it is BLEACH”.

        Yes, the bleach is the only issue here, it is the only thing this blog post is concerned about, it’s how “woo” peddlers are trying to guile people out of their money by providing a downright dangerous substance of the guise of a miracle cure.

        Vitamin D or this ineffective tea are completely, utterly, absolutely irrelevant. All that is relevant is information to determine the nature of this “MMS” ‘drug’, which all relevant information makes it fairly clear… it. is. bleach.

    • kayumochi October 20, 2010 at 1:02 pm #

      @Al,

      “This isn’t about restricting something that is ineffective. This is about banning something that is both incapable of doing what is claimed and that is actively harmful to health.”

      You see, like attacks on hate speech, it never simply stops with that as evidenced by the attacks on homeopathy on this blog.

      • MadGav October 20, 2010 at 4:47 pm #

        It’s hard to see how pointing out that bleach will not cure anyone’s malaria, HIV, cancer, Crohn’s, Lyme disease… is an example of a slippery slope (however much you might want to suggest it is).

  95. HitMe WithIt October 19, 2010 at 9:56 pm #

    Hey WelshBoyo! Good work there mate.
    I have Crohn’s disease too and I just read about what you did, I heard about you on a podcast too yesterday, the name of which I will remember and post back tomorrow!
    I’d love to talk more, I have got some strong opinions on the way that MOST Crohn’s forums or support networks are so full of woo and pseudoscience and I have had many experiences of trying to advise people to research, read and read again before believing blindly but most times it provokes animosity.
    People mistakenly equate scepticism with being negative.
    How wrong they are but don’t try to tell them.
    Especially on some of the forums, they jump up with their little power trip ‘mod’ title and warn you off!!
    It is sad really…
    Anyway it is passed my bedtime here so I will have to check out your site tomorrow and probably post to you again.
    I wish you well and hope the Crohn’s isn’t too much to bear at the moment. :)

    • kayumochi October 19, 2010 at 10:00 pm #

      Curious, is “Paleolithic Nutrition” aka “Paleo” mentioned on these Crohn’s forums? I know of someone who healed himself eating a strict Paleo diet. Interestingly, it stems from a branch of science known as Evolutionary Medicine.

  96. thirdthought October 20, 2010 at 7:59 am #

    Good work mate! good the skepticism alive.

  97. John Phillips, FCD October 20, 2010 at 9:14 am #

    kayumochi, is that the same Ron Paul, US politician, liberturd and Presidential hopeful, who believes that government has little or no place in any form of regulation. Or whose son, now also standing for national office, when he failed to get his board certification in, IIRC, ophthalmology, created his own board to self certify himself just so he could claim to be board certified when treating patients. Yep, I am definitely going to listen to him criticise a government agency he doesn’t believe should exist, NOT.

    @Rhys, from a fellow Cymro, if it wasn’t perhaps a tad too nationalistic, I would say that you are a credit to your nation and look to have a bright future, your condition willing. We need a lot more like you for the future, keep it up.

    • kayumochi October 20, 2010 at 1:09 pm #

      No, this is the same FDA that is run by former executives of Big Pharma.

      • John Phillips, FCD October 20, 2010 at 10:50 pm #

        The only problem with the FDA, irrespective of who is in charge, much like many other similar regulatory authorities world wide, is that they are often underfunded and yes unfortunately, sometimes open to political influence or interference. Additionally, they are often prevented from investigating many things that really matter, such as so called alt-med, again strangely, by political influence in the making of the appropriate laws. But get this, not by ‘SCARY BIG PHARMA’ this time, but by politicians getting their ‘funding’ from the alt-med industry. Which also sometimes happens over here in the UK whenever we try to tighten laws about alt-med with inevitably a few ‘select’ MPs slithering out of their swamp to support quackery.

        However, if you want to see what a system without such a regulatory system and left open to the so called free market is like, as liberturds such as Ron Paul want, read your history books, and you don’t have to go that far back either.

  98. Rhys Morgan October 20, 2010 at 9:04 pm #

    @Maria
    Will you PLEASE stop spamming my blog with your conspiracy theories.
    Here are a few problems with your spurious claims.
    1. I am not from the USA. I am not part of the FDA. I am a 15 year old teenager who lives in Wales, UK.
    2. Penicillin was not invented in the USA or by the FDA. It was discovered by Alexander Fleming, a Scot.
    3. You claim you have evidence that Miracle Mineral Solution works. If you have any REAL evidence, such as proper clinical trials published in a peer reviewed medical journal, please share it here. I believe the phrase is put up or shut up. However, I will make this easy for you – there isn’t any.
    If you keep insulting and threatening people on my blog, I will be forced to take further action.

    • Maria documented October 21, 2010 at 1:10 am #

      Thanks for answering, I wasn’t aware that posting will be spamming, in that case and respecting your age I will stop posting, however, I haven’t been claiming that penicillin was invented in USA, I said they did make trials in Guatemala city and it is all over the news!
      If you are trying to get clinical trials published in a medical journal, you know well enough that they are not being allowed.
      Of course there isn’t any.
      I am not insulting and threatening no one, and if it seemed to be, please accept my apologies.
      There are no conspiracy theorist here, but what can I say, I am writing in a blog of a 15 year old, who may be just another FDA advocate who may not be a 15 year old kid. There is no proof that you are who you say you are? Are you? I knew it!

      And you can take any action you may, however MMS speaks for itself and the people who dare to question what our government will impose in behalf of our own good regardless what it is the damage they do to your body.
      I didn’t know that this blog is all about discouraging MMS followers, also I didn’t know that you felt threatened by some postings I made in the contrary.

      • MMS is a scam October 21, 2010 at 5:19 am #

        Marie — any clinical trial performed properly can be published in a journal. A journal will not publish proof based on anecdotal reports.

        Rhys is genuine — he doesn’t have anything to do with the FDA as he does not live in the USA. There is actual proof that Rhys is indeed a 15 year old boy fighting Humble’s woo — has been interviewed in person — no interviewer has ever sadi this in not a fifteen year old boy. Do some research.

        Yes MMS speaks for itself — a poison that does nothing.

        I doubt Rhys feels threatened by your posts. This blog does not exist to push anecdotal crap, it exists to expose the scam that Humble and his followers perpetuate. MMS does nothing except prove in spades that the placebo effect does, in fact, exist.

  99. Maria October 21, 2010 at 7:37 am #

    You are telling me that there it is actual proof that he exists, and I have done the search although you can tell me anything you want as much as I can say about MMS.
    The only difference here is that I can say that I exist and I am willing to give my full name and he hasn’t.
    This means I am real and he might be a fake. Interviewed? Again, where it is the proof that the interview ever took place? He could be any kid posted on an interview.
    Again that does not prove anything.
    Placebo effect to the ones that have not tried MMS. I have tried and I dare for you to contact me and I will be glad to show you in person, not by any interview which will be flagged as false.

    • Andrew October 21, 2010 at 9:02 am #

      … You’re actually arguing that Rhys Morgan doesn’t exist?

      http://richarddawkins.net/articles/534614-praise-for-rhys-morgan-15-over-miracle-cure-alert
      So that’s a fake picture?

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/oct/15/1
      http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/10/17/1287305806585/rhys.png
      That’s a falsified award here?

      http://www.twitvid.com/Z7TOH
      That’s not a 15 year old kid?

      This is a giant multi-international conspiracy where the FDA has conspired to pretend to be a 15 year old kid in the UK, where they gave a fake kid a fake award at a fake secular meeting, made a fake video, made apparently other fake videos just to… erm… make it appear more real?
      http://www.twitvid.com/8ADE5
      http://www.twitvid.com/AFB0C

      The FDA has faked all of that for the sole purpose of discrediting a “healing solution” which even if you don’t trust the FDA you could do a bit of research yourself and see it’s a bleach solution.

      And that makes sense to you? @_@ That’s not an incredibly convoluted insane processes? You really think the FDA is THAT against alternative medicine that they’d fake an entire blog and construct a fake human being all in the interest of toppling a silly product that promises far more than is reasonable?

      Really? I mean… really??

      • MMS is a scam October 21, 2010 at 11:40 am #

        Don’t forget — http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11540146

        Even if Rhys did not exist, MMS would still be snake oil. The truth is Rhys exists and MMS is snake oil.

        I have read some crazy stuff on the internet (most of it out of the mouths of the Humble sect) and this certainly takes the cake.

    • Al October 21, 2010 at 9:25 am #

      To summarise:
      You say we should accept what you say as true, but you won’t accept any evidence, no matter how compelling, that Rhys even exists.

      You’re mad, basically.

  100. Justin Satov October 21, 2010 at 1:57 pm #

    @Maria

    Mariluz Paiz
    Maria Ramirez
    Maria Paiz

    These are the names you have posted. Is Jim Humble another of your names, perhaps?

    For you information, I’m not a citizen of the U.S., I’m Canadian. So no, the FDA has no bearing on me or my life. As far as your belief that MMS works – as everyone else has said, it’s all placebo. The fact is, you’re taking a low concentration of industrial bleach. Some people can get sick, or some people will think they feel better, via placebo. There is no healing power to it, it’s just a scam, and there is no science of any kind to back it up. But there is not enough to kill you, which is why Jim Humble has not been arrested.

    Just to mention this again, Mariluz Paiz, Maria Ramirez, and Maria Paiz are the names you have offered as Facebook searches. Aside from the amusing inconsistency, I find it highly entertaining that you accuse Rhys of being a puppet and being fake, yet you cannot even provide the same name in every post.

    HOWEVER, in the interest of personal choice, you may waste away your money on whatever stupid products you wish, and you may make up whatever “facts” you need to in order to convince yourself that it works. I can’t stop you from doing that, and nor do I intend to. It’s your money, it’s your health; burn it away wherever you please.

    But just remember that every time you take an aspirin, any time you drink clean water, any time you enjoy food that is free of disease, and any time you receive medical attention, remember that organisations like the FDA or Health Canada exist to regulate this stuff, so that you aren’t getting fucked like you do when you buy into stupid scams.

    • Maria October 22, 2010 at 12:59 am #

      @Justin Satov, WHATEVER, At least I am not behind a curtain of pseudo names or anonymous names, playing games on the internet claiming false arguments.
      I am telling facts based on my own experience with my own documents and with real names. You can call me whatever, but if you found out about it, at least I can be found.
      My hospital test are real with no placebo effect, which you claim out of thin air. Like everything here it is taken out of proportion.
      WHATEVER, WHATEVER!!!

      • Justin Satov October 22, 2010 at 1:46 am #

        I’m so glad to see that you are of the maturity to yell “whatever” at me for calling you out on blatant inconsistency.

        “You can call me whatever, but if you found out about it, at least I can be found.” I’m not sure what the hell you’re trying to say here. But it sounds like you’re unaware that you used three different names for yourself. I simply searched one of the names you gave and found a dozen Facebook pages.

        And what do you mean “Pseudo Names”? Justin Satov IS my real birth name. As you’re so fond of saying, “I am in facebook” – did you know that the phrase “I am in facebook, so you can check that I am alive” appears exactly as I just typed it a total of five times on this page?

        You’re a puppet who is no more intelligent, mature, or believable than the rest of the MMS sheep who refuse to listen to the actual science and instead choose to believe in the nonsense.

        Please do yourself a favor and stay as far from the internet as you can, lest you further embarrass yourself. You’ve clearly shown that you lack the ability to have a mature and intellectual debate – “WHATEVER WHATEVER” is a fine example of your tactics.

        While I realize that most of the internet’s discussions are comprised of this type of communication, it’s simply not fit for a blog such as this. Your spam and stupidity belong somewhere else, like youtube or 4chan.

      • Roland October 22, 2010 at 10:40 pm #

        Estimada María, leo en los comentarios el blog de Phaelosopher que usted trabaja para el gobierno guatemalteco. ¿Podría por favor indicarnos en qué dependencia del gobierno trabaja usted?

        Creo que no ha comprendido cual es el punto. Ha mencionado los crímenes que autoridades de Estados Unidos cometieron en Guatemala -un acto detestable-, pero eso nada tiene que ver con la FDA ni con el SMM.

        Creo que lo que la mayoría de las personas que le han respondido le han solicitado es que proporcione evidencia clínica de que el SMM es a) seguro y b) efectivo. Eso es todo. Yo mismo estoy particularmente interesado en acceder a esa evidencia. ¿No cree que sería más fácil para todos?

        To everyone else: my apologies for writting in Spanish. Since María is from Guatemala, I believe I can communicate better with her if I use our native language)

      • Andrew October 22, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

        Roland, lo siento, pero creo que evidencia clínica no le interesa.

        English, Spanish, it doesn’t matter, she seems to object to the idea of anecdotal evidence not being, well, evidence. She doesn’t seem to accept the validity of the placebo effect at all. I believe that’s more an endemic problem than a language problem.

        … But I’d really like to be wrong.

  101. MMS is a scam October 21, 2010 at 5:52 pm #

    Just read this load of poop on a Q&A site run by Humble.

    “Yes MMS works really well on people with diabetes. I know of a lot of people who are off their insulin, I also known of people who have gotten their sight back”

    So MMS not only acts on pathogens but is able to do what medical science has not been able to do — fix the pancreas. And MMS enables the nerves in the eye to grow back. What next?

    This man is a lying fraud (not libel because it’s true) and his medical advice is dangerous.

    The world needs more people like Rhys exposing Humble’s lies.

    • Justin Satov October 21, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

      Don’t know if you saw, but on the Facebook page for MMS he claims that the FDA has “data” proving that his product works. Or was that in the same thing you read?

      • MMS is a scam October 22, 2010 at 2:45 am #

        Humble pretty well lies about everything. There is no data that MMS works. To prove that MMS works, clinical trials would have to be performed — double-blind etc. He could have provided data to the FDA and he could have fudged it. I just can’t believe a man who claims that MMS caused a woman’s breasts to grow back, who claims that MMS cures every disease, that MMS restores sight. He’s so full of shite I can smell him from here.

  102. Maria October 22, 2010 at 4:00 pm #

    This 15 year old kid is more a nut case than I could ever been, as he claims in his tweets. He has a mental problem beyond his imagination to lead some blogs where he threatens people with suing and impersonating bloggers like Backprojects which are coming from the same IP. Be careful with his posts, because he is already being banned from a Chrons Forum.

    And this is what this kid supposedly 15 years old called Rhys did on a Crohns forum and was told on Twitvid:

    “crohnsibd again – you were not banned for bringing any particular topic to discussion. you were banned for being rude, aggressive, and insulting – despite being asked politely to refrain from this behavior. you did not choose to “leave it” – you were banned for 2 weeks to calm down. your quest for fame since then as the ‘victim’ is purely retaliation for being banned for bad behavior. you were illegally on the forum in the first place, as you clicked to agree that you were 18 years of age at the point of registration. you are only 15. Rhys you are nothing but a dishonest troublemaker who needs to grow up. the forum does not ‘push’ treatments… members discuss and sometimes suggest treatments that have helped them..as do thousands of medical support groups on the net. we have a disclaimer on the front page saying that we are not doctors and that any advice given should be checked out with doctors before embarking on…. you don’t have a leg to stand on Rhys…. to all Rhys’ followers, you don’t know the fully story, Rhys is only telling you what he wants you to know, to promote exactly the response he is getting, you’re all being sucked in.

    And this Rhysmorgan has the nerve to call me a nutcase! So stop making a quest for fame at the expense of people that defend what they have proven to be healthy for them and not what it is forced to them.

    Why don’t you stop harassing people on the internet with your fake bloggers. And if you do not stop calling me names too, defaming me and threatening by anonymous bloggers. I am well in my rights to sue you too, for sending me death threats like the following one on phaelosopher http://phaelosopher.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/charting-the-changes-in-mms-practice/ :

    “Blackprojects Says:
    October 21, 2010 at 8:22 am

    Maria

    The World Health Organistation is on the HUNT for MMS Suplier”s and any one found Promoting MMS will soon be in Very Deep SHIT that mean”s you , Making Veiled Thrat”s Can be considerd a breach of the Law so refrane from doing it or risk going the way the guy who threatend the South park creator”s way of the JAIL!

    MMS will kill you stone Cold DEAD one day and when that happens no one will Mourn your Passing as you are a FOOLISH Women , You are playing Russian Roulette with a machine gun and one day you will get a loaded Clip and that will be the end of Maria!”

    • Paul Morgan October 22, 2010 at 4:26 pm #

      How do you solve a problem like Maria? I’ve come across a number of deluded rants by pro-MMS advocates on Facebook, but her posts beat them hands down for outright stupidity. I can only assume she is mentally ill as these are not the thoughts of a sane, rational person.
      Seriously, if she were in the UK it may be possible to get her committed to a psychiatric hospital under the Mental Health Act.

      • David Allen Green October 22, 2010 at 4:39 pm #

        Dear Maria

        You have no legal claim at all against my friend Rhys Morgan. You should stop threatening any legal action unless you know what you are doing.

        But if you do dare sue Rhys Morgan, I will defend him. And I will do so for free. I will ensure your claim is not only defeated but that you are seen to be defeated. And I will be very pleased to do this. Ask the British Chiropractic Association what it feels like to lose in such a way.

        In the meantime, I also refer you to the case of Arkell v Pressdram.

        David Allen Green
        (Solicitor and blogger)

      • Maria October 22, 2010 at 5:03 pm #

        Seriously, if you where some other place rather the UK, your would be asked if you have any qualification as a physiologist or Board certified physician to make such a statement.

        Don’t assume that you are a faceless blogger and that you can claim anything you want.
        Are you a physician to make such diagnose?

        Your statements are more deluded than mine, because I am not claiming to be something that it can’t be proved, like passing judgments based on nothing but anonymous clinical imagination.

        Seriously, your baseless comment has no medical practice background to the diagnosis you just mentioned.
        Now you are being the deluded one trying to post as a physician with downright stupidity.

  103. ProstheticHead October 22, 2010 at 5:09 pm #

    @Maria: I think Paul Morgan actually is a fully qualified and registered medical doctor.

    Major lolz!

    • Maria October 22, 2010 at 5:26 pm #

      Maybe he is qualified to give advise, but I haven’t given my permission to do it under my name.
      So Major LOLZ to you too!

      • Hayley Stevens October 22, 2010 at 5:34 pm #

        What do you hope to gain by being so rude on this blog, Maria? I’m really interested in what it is you are trying to achieve.

  104. Paul Morgan October 22, 2010 at 5:11 pm #

    Maria, I just “met” a girl named Maria!
    Let’s just be clear about one thing – I AM A DOCTOR! You can look me up on the General Medical Council register – it’s not difficult. I’ve seen your comments here and on Phaelosopher. I think you have “issues”. I’ve met – in person – many of the people who post here, including Jack of Kent. Just be aware that he is not joking.
    I have seen that you apparently work for the Guatemalan Government – may I ask in which department as I’d like to contact the head of your department. Strange how your IP address traces back to Florida…..

    • Maria October 22, 2010 at 6:37 pm #

      Mr. Allen:
      If I have no legal claim, I will let the courts to decide the outcome.
      I will dare whatever I want, when I want and how I want it and you have no say into what I should do or not do. Period.
      The fact is, that I haven’t solicited any legal advice from you.

      You are within your rights to defend whoever you wish to do so, that does not make me any less within my rights to sue whoever I want.

      The point is, I have the means and the legal background to do it and your expertise does not frighten me at all.

      If your efforts are in coming onto me to discourage me, they are just showing me how incompetent people are into assuming what they want.

      In the mean time, I don’t pretend to know how such a case would come out, but the fact that they voluntarily posted it, just makes me assume that it might be information that is admissible as evidence.

      • Justin Satov October 22, 2010 at 7:00 pm #

        Are you really this insane in person, or is it just an internet personality?

      • Andrew October 22, 2010 at 7:43 pm #

        Well, considering David Allen Green is apparently a fairly distinguished lawyer who really did take part in Singh’s awesome defeat of the chiropractors, I’m going to venture she actually is insane. She somehow believes she really has a case, and somehow is making cogent arguments.

        … What I don’t get is how she could believe Rhys is “supposedly” 15, I honestly don’t get how the FDA is part of some giant conspiracy to fake an entire 15 year old kid. And set videos on twitter vid up a year in advance just to add credibility? Seriously, the amount of logical hoops that these conspiracy theorists must jump through, the shear monstrous logical twister they must have going on, is truly astounding.

        It takes quite a person to preform so much mental gymnastics and still have the capability of typing letters on a screen that emulate written English.

        PS, just looked up “Arkell v Pressdram”, amazing.

  105. Machupiku October 22, 2010 at 5:43 pm #

    Oh my god ! Speechless.

  106. Garg October 22, 2010 at 5:45 pm #

    Arkell vs Pressdram comment just made me laugh quite badly.

    Maria, what you don’t seem to see is the fact that almost all of your arguments can be turned back on you. “where is the proof?”. No really, you tell us where the proof is beyond inane ramblings. “I don’t know who these people are, you are all mad!” this statement made my irony meter blow up into fine shards.

    Truth is, you have had your say and you continue to add nothing to the discussion and you almost certainly never will.

    • skepticat October 22, 2010 at 6:58 pm #

      @Garg

      The best proof is Maria Paz from Guatemala City, who is on Facebook so you can check she’s alive etc, etc,……

      • Justin Satov October 22, 2010 at 7:09 pm #

        Don’t forget, she’s also Mariluz Paiz and Maria Ramirez, who HAS NO QUALIFICATIONS and won’t provide any of the proof-of-this-and-that of which she has demanded of everyone else.

      • Garg October 22, 2010 at 7:36 pm #

        Haha of course. If I had read that intro one more time…

  107. Zeno October 22, 2010 at 7:17 pm #

    Justin

    She also says she has a ‘legal background’. I bet David Allen Green is quaking in his boots.

    • Justin Satov October 22, 2010 at 7:19 pm #

      The best part is that her “legal background” can be anything from being arrested to taking a law class in high school.

      • Judge Judy October 22, 2010 at 7:28 pm #

        Well, there is one thing that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt in all this debate: those on both sides of the MMS issue have proven themselves to be insane.

    • John Dixon October 22, 2010 at 9:26 pm #

      I’d pay to see the trial.

  108. Rhys Morgan October 22, 2010 at 7:36 pm #

    Umm… How so, Judge Judy?
    Are you suggesting that it’s better to be neither for nor against MMS, given that MMS is an industrial bleach being sold as a miracle cure for absolutely everything?

    • Judge Judy October 22, 2010 at 7:46 pm #

      I am MMS agnostic. Drink it or don’t drink it.

      • Rhys Morgan October 22, 2010 at 7:52 pm #

        Fantastic idea.
        Let’s just let Humble and his cronies continue to lie about MMS. Let’s not care that it’s industrial bleach. Let’s not care that it will lead to deaths either by effects of drinking industrial bleach or by avoiding real medicine. Let’s not care, because people should all be responsible to do their research.
        Or, how about let’s actually care about public health and whether people are being made ill by an illegal, dangerous “miracle cure” supplement.
        You still haven’t supported your claim that people on BOTH side of the debate are insane.

      • Stephen J Henstridge October 22, 2010 at 8:09 pm #

        JJ Then what is your interest in following this blog?

  109. Judge Judy October 22, 2010 at 8:13 pm #

    ” You still haven’t supported your claim that people on BOTH side of the debate are insane.”

    I have read Maria’s posts and the responses to her posts. If that isn’t insane, I don’t know what is.

    • Rhys Morgan October 22, 2010 at 8:17 pm #

      Just how does that prove that everyone is insane? How on earth are the responses insane?

      • Andrew October 22, 2010 at 9:55 pm #

        Now now, some of us actually are insane, for example I’m studying physics in university, and I’ve never met a sane physics student (or prof for that matter). That includes myself of course.

    • Paul Morgan October 22, 2010 at 8:22 pm #

      I think that everyone thinks that Maria (whatever her real name is or which one of her three names is, or if it’s just a pseudonym) is probably insane. Who on the anti-MMS side of the debate is insane?

    • MadGav October 22, 2010 at 8:49 pm #

      I really don’t see any evidence of insanity in these postings – perhaps you could be a little more specific?

      To be honest, I wouldn’t start giving anyone a psychiatric label based on what they post on the interwebs… (though I might harbour suspicions in certain cases).

      • Justin Satov October 22, 2010 at 9:36 pm #

        I also am interested to know how providing logical arguments is insane.

        And, for the record, anytime someone says “everybody but me is insane”… Well, I’m sure you can imagine where that’s leading. Unless we’re all insane and need someone to explain it to you.

  110. MMS is a scam October 22, 2010 at 11:38 pm #

    Its seems to me that Maria is doing the usual Humble sect thing — can’t provide proof so starts the illogical accusations, the insults etc. This is a common theme on any forum or blog — if somebody tries to expose MMS for what it is — the Humble sect comes along and posts all sorts of crap and then disappear.

    Maybe the best thing to do is DON’T FEED THE TROLL.

    She doesn’t seem to have anything positive to add to the blog.

    Here’s a suggestion Maria — start your own blog!!!!!!!

  111. MMS is a scam October 23, 2010 at 3:44 am #

    Maria –

    You said to Rhys —

    “Thanks for answering, I wasn’t aware that posting will be spamming, in that case and respecting your age I will stop posting” – but you didn’t stop posting, you continued to insult Rhys.

    You said “I said they did make trials in Guatemala city and it is all over the news!” — there is not one news article in Guatemala City that mentions MMS that I can find.

    You said “There are no conspiracy theorist here, but what can I say, I am writing in a blog of a 15 year old, who may be just another FDA advocate who may not be a 15 year old kid. There is no proof that you are who you say you are? Are you? I knew it!” What you just wrote suggests a conspiracy theory.

    It’s very interesting that you say you are from Guatemala City, yet your IP address comes from Florida — please explain that.

    Lastly, as an adult, do you believe it is ok to treat a 15 year old boy the way you have? I find it disgusting. He has single handedly brought MMS under scrutiny and done an excellent job of getting his message across in a very mature way. Does he need to be insulted by adults, does he need to be put down by adults. Try being a role model. You could have just said you didn’t agree with him or not said anything at all.

    One last thing — could you please provide us with all the news stories about the trials off MMS that were covered by the press in Guatemala city.

    • Justin Satov October 23, 2010 at 3:48 am #

      Well said, well said.

      Sadly, I don’t think we’re ever going to see any evidence from the Humble followers for anything other than perhaps lunacy. Humble and I have been firing emails back and forth, with me explicitly requesting source material, which has not been provided.
      “Do your own research” seems to be the most popular response. And it’s ever so damning, as it’s akin to saying “I don’t have any but if you could find some that would be great”.

    • Maria October 23, 2010 at 4:40 am #

      You can twist any words you want, although you know well that English is my second language, I bet you only speak one language, now you can misunderstand whatever you want.
      I don’t have to explain anything to you either.

      Trials of syphilis where done in Guatemala without the consent on innocent people, these inoculations where done to the sole purpose of trying a new drug called penicillin in the 1940′s by the USA and it is all over the news that that it is what I was talking about.

      Is this the way he has done an excellent job of getting his message across in a very mature way:

      Found it on twitvid about a crohn’s forum who banned him :

      “crohnsibd again – you were not banned for bringing any particular topic to discussion. you were banned for being rude, aggressive, and insulting – despite being asked politely to refrain from this behavior. you did not choose to “leave it” – you were banned for 2 weeks to calm down. your quest for fame since then as the ‘victim’ is purely retaliation for being banned for bad behavior. you were illegally on the forum in the first place, as you clicked to agree that you were 18 years of age at the point of registration. you are only 15. Rhys you are nothing but a dishonest troublemaker who needs to grow up. the forum does not ‘push’ treatments… members discuss and sometimes suggest treatments that have helped them..as do thousands of medical support groups on the net. we have a disclaimer on the front page saying that we are not doctors and that any advice given should be checked out with doctors before embarking on…. you don’t have a leg to stand on Rhys…. to all Rhys’ followers, you don’t know the fully story, Rhys is only telling you what he wants you to know, to promote exactly the response he is getting, you’re all being sucked in.”

      I gave him the same appreciation he gave onto me, when he started to calling me names. Does he needed to insult me?

      • Justin Satov October 23, 2010 at 4:47 am #

        Sorry, where did he call you names?
        I just did a very quick scan over everything and I didn’t see any name-calling. Although, unlike MMS supporters, I’m ok with being proven wrong. So please, enlighten me.

      • Kristjan Wager October 23, 2010 at 7:36 am #

        “You can twist any words you want, although you know well that English is my second language, I bet you only speak one language, now you can misunderstand whatever you want.”

        I am a native Dane, so English is my second language – i.e. don’t try to play the bi-lingual card on us.

        “Trials of syphilis where done in Guatemala without the consent on innocent people, these inoculations where done to the sole purpose of trying a new drug called penicillin in the 1940′s by the USA and it is all over the news that that it is what I was talking about.”

        Penicillin was not a new drug in the 1940s, but it is true that the experiments were done in order to test penicillin against syphilis. What does that have to do with MMS?

        The only connection I can see is to use it to explain why doing experiments with MMS on human subjects would be illegal and against all moral guidelines for human testing – guidelines which were put in place because of experiments like the Tuskegee syphilis experiment (the Guatemalan experiments were unknown until recently).

        “you were banned for 2 weeks to calm down. your quest for fame since then as the ‘victim’ is purely retaliation for being banned for bad behavior.”

        His so-called “quest for fame” seems to have nothing to do with the forum, and everything to do with saving lives. Unlike your quest to convince people to drink bleach.

        “you were illegally on the forum in the first place, as you clicked to agree that you were 18 years of age at the point of registration. you are only 15.”

        I doubt that you get far in claiming that he was there illegally. You can say that he wasn’t allowed there, but he almost certainly was not in breach of any laws (please provide evidence otherwise).

        “Rhys you are nothing but a dishonest troublemaker who needs to grow up. the forum does not ‘push’ treatments… members discuss and sometimes suggest treatments that have helped them..as do thousands of medical support groups on the net.”

        The only dishonest people I’ve seen here are the people trying to push MMS. Rhys has explained the dialog, and it is clear from his description that while some people only suggested drinking bleach, others actively tried convincing people to do so, and went out of their way to keep dissenters from speaking out against it.

        Also, I fail to understand why others should keep quite about things that are clearly harmful, just because others claim that they have been helped by that. People do many bad things to themselves under the illusion that it will help – it is the moral duty of the rest of us to speak out against such harmful practices.

        “we have a disclaimer on the front page saying that we are not doctors and that any advice given should be checked out with doctors before embarking on…”

        Oh, a quack miranda warning – all quacks use that one.

        “you don’t have a leg to stand on Rhys….”

        You mean regarding the forum. I can’t speak for Rhys, but I think it is safe to say that he doesn’t care about your forum. He cares about other peoples’ health, and there he does indeed have “a leg to stand on”.

        Rhys brought MMS to the attention of several health
        organizations including the WHO. Seems to me that he has done a pretty good job.

        “to all Rhys’ followers, you don’t know the fully story, Rhys is only telling you what he wants you to know, to promote exactly the response he is getting, you’re all being sucked in.”

        I know most of the people who comment here from the skeptic movement on the internet. We, as a collective, are not easily sucked in. Rather, we evaluate the evidence, and follow that. The evidence here is that Rhys has uncovered a dangerous quack selling bleach for consumption to people, and that some people (including you) are trying to protect that quack.

        “I gave him the same appreciation he gave onto me, when he started to calling me names. Does he needed to insult me?”

        You are actively promoting selling bleach as a cure for numerous incurable diseases. That is vileness of the worst kind. If I was you, I’d just be happy that people are not using much worse languages against you.

      • Paul Morgan October 23, 2010 at 9:34 am #

        “They call the wind Maria” – a song from the musical “Paint Your Wagon”. So appropriate, as Maria seems to be full of wind. I also think there is another saying that seems apt – empty vessels make the most sound. Maria makes a lot of noise but doesn’t actually say anything to substantiate her stated position, instead spinning of at tangents. She has been asked on a number of occasions to produce evidence to support claims about MMS and her position of “authority”, yet she remains strangely silent on these matters. As for newspaper stories in Guatemala, she obviously doesn’t understand the power of the Internet in being able to check such claims out. I have searched for these news stories – nothing comes up about MMS, either for or against it. Perhaps she would be kind enough to tell us where these stories were published by naming the newspapers and the dates the articles were published. Of course, newspapers are hardly a reliable basis for assessing the safety and efficacy of medical therapies, otherwise we’d all believe everything written in the Daily Fail (sorry, Daily Mail).

      • Justin Satov October 23, 2010 at 1:40 pm #

        Well said, Kristjan.
        The only thing I would add, and something that I’m surprised didn’t show up already, is that yes, trials were being done. But you know what, they were never done for MMS. MMS was just pushed out onto the market and initially given out to people who don’t have the education or resources to check it.
        You can even read the “history” of the product, and it’s pretty clear that Humble’s “trials” would have been on the people in Africa. He claims to have spent years in Africa perfecting his method and concoction, i.e. TRIALS and EXPERIMENTS.

        Same thing that happened in Guatemala, except Jim Humble is far from being a medically trained professional, so he shouldn’t have even touched the subject.

      • MMS is a scam October 23, 2010 at 4:37 pm #

        @Maria — I really should follow my own advice and ignore you but I would like to mention that the cherry-picked quote you are using, written by “crohnsibd again”, can’t be taken as the written gospel. Did you read the rest of the posts — you keep posting the same comment over and over — what is it proof of — why not post the other 36 comments that are in favour of Rhys and supportive of Rhys — one lie, written by one person, does not make good evidence.

        Talking about lies — I just read a whole bunch of personal stories supposedly written by different individuals about the greatness of MMS — this is on Humble’s MMS site — unfortunately, they all seem to be written by the same person as the style of writing never changes. What a scamola.

        Are you going to be flying over to the UK for the court date with Rhys or are you going to issue an arrest warrant through Interpol? Are you going to be represented by Minister Jim Humble himself as he is taking donations for his church of WOO to help defray court costs. Too bad Rhys didn’t call you anything –
        you have no case — no court, anywhere, would take you seriously. If you actually had any experience with the law, you would know this.

        I am still wondering why your IP address comes out of Florida — please explain — Is your real name Mariluz (Maria) Ramirez Paiz?

  112. Jerome Gorriz October 24, 2010 at 9:18 am #

    Bonjour à Tous,
    Avant de critiquer le MMS, utilisez le pendant un mois.
    Avec ce ionisateur, mon système immunitaire se défend à merveille.

    Même les personnes qui ont soit-disant un corps sain, ont tous le corps encrassé, je pense en particulier, malheureusement aux chaimtrails qui sont balancés par des avions, et qui déposent des maladies dans l’air.
    Tout le monde respire cette mauvaise air, car le phénomène des chaimtrails est mondial.
    Le MMS aide le corps à résister aux produits malsains que nous respirons.
    Le MMS évite par exemple la grippe, plus besoin de vaccin !
    Le MMS est inoffensif si l’on prend progressivement les doses.
    La FDA a essayé d’interdire le MMS parce qu’il supprime au moins 5 000 à 10 000 médicaments du marché pharmaceutique, là est la vraie raison, mais il y a trop de personnes qui se servent du MMS et qui ont guéri de nombreuses maladies grâce au MMS.
    Essayer le MMS et vous serez en bien meilleure santé.

    Jérôme

  113. Jerome Gorriz October 24, 2010 at 9:19 am #

    Bonjour à Tous,
    Avant de critiquer le MMS, utilisez le pendant un mois.
    Avec ce ionisateur, mon système immunitaire se défend à merveille.

    Même les personnes qui ont soit-disant un corps sain, ont tous le corps encrassé, je pense en particulier, malheureusement aux chaimtrails qui sont balancés par des avions, et qui déposent des maladies dans l’air.
    Tout le monde respire cette mauvaise air, car le phénomène des chaimtrails est mondial.
    Le MMS aide le corps à résister aux produits malsains que nous respirons.
    Le MMS évite par exemple la grippe, plus besoin de vaccin !
    Le MMS est inoffensif si l’on prend progressivement les doses.
    La FDA a essayé d’interdire le MMS parce qu’il supprime au moins 5 000 à 10 000 médicaments du marché pharmaceutique, là est la vraie raison, mais il y a trop de personnes qui se servent du MMS et qui ont guéri de nombreuses maladies grâce au MMS.
    Essayez le MMS et vous serez en bien meilleure santé.

    Jérôme

    • Ed Darrell October 24, 2010 at 9:30 am #

      No, Jérôme, no one has been cured by this bleach solution. We use poisons to cure cancers — the idea is that the cancer cells are more susceptible to the poison than the other cells, and we hope to kill the cancer before the poisons kill the patient. But that is done under tight medical supervision.

      If you think this solution works so well, why not switch to Clorox? Chlorine bleach would be better at “cleaning.”

      What you don’t appear to understand is that what is cleaned out is part of you, if you take this stuff. Maybe it’s a not-perfect part. But this solution cannot distinguish good cells from bad.

      MMS clearly does not work as you claim. It has turned you into a duck. QUACK!

    • MadGav October 24, 2010 at 9:32 am #

      Wow,

      Jérôme, with the exception of chemtrails… you’re not covering anything that hasn’t already been discussed here.

      Nobody needs to drink bleach in order to know it’s a bad idea (and no, MMS is far from harmless… but then you know that already I’m sure).

      It doesn’t cure any disease (of course, if you have any *proof* (preferably from peer-reviewed journals) then feel free to share it).

      I’m not desperate enough to drink bleach, Jérôme, but thank you anyway.

      Wow,

      Jérôme, à l’exception des chemtrails … vous n’êtes pas couvrir tout ce qui n’a pas déjà été abordé ici.

      Personne n’a besoin de boire l’eau de Javel pour savoir que c’est une mauvaise idée (et non, MMS est loin d’être inoffensif … mais alors vous savez que déjà je suis sûr).

      Il ne guérit pas une maladie (bien sûr, si vous avez des preuves (de préférence de revues) alors n’hésitez pas à le partager).

      Je ne suis pas assez désespéré pour boire l’eau de Javel, Jérôme, mais merci quand même.

      • Kristjan Wager October 24, 2010 at 11:39 am #

        Chemtrails. Another datapoint for the quack magnetism hypothesis – for people unaware of this hypothesis, it’s the phenomenon of cranks of one type being drawn to other types of nonsense – first commented on by the Denialist blog http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2007/06/crank_magnetism_1.php

        Basically, it says that e.g. intelligent design proponents are often also HIV/AIDS deniers and anthropogenic global warming deniers, or that people who believes in woo often get sucked into believing all sorts of conspiracy theories, like Jérôme amply demonstrates.

  114. Machupiku October 24, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

    Ok. I’ve thought carefully and think I’ve worked it all out now. Rhys is not real afterall, and I can easily explain the interviews etc. None of us in uk are real. In fact the only countries on this flat earth are the Americas. Everything else is an invention if the FDA. There is no uk. No tam London no Alexander flemming. Its all the FDA. They invented ” the rest of the world” in order to continue their evil doings. They infect good citizens in order to administer the antidote, which they call “cure” or “medicine”. They do this to be able to make it appear that real people distrust real miracles, when it is in fact them stopping us from receiving real miracle solutions to our illnesses. Well, I say us, but as a “uk” citizen I do not exist. This conspiracy has been going on for hundreds of years. In fact it pre- dates the official start of the FDA proving just how sneaky they are. But the truth will out. Rhys is not a young man fr Wales , there is no Wales ! And now I shall replace my tin foil hat and retreat to the bunker as they are sure to be after me now I have revealed their secret.

    :-) lol! ;-)

    • MMS is a scam October 24, 2010 at 5:49 pm #

      @Machupiku

      You’ve done it now — started an uber conspiracy theory which will be used by Humble to explain everything.

      Is Canada real or just the USA?

  115. Jerome Gorriz October 24, 2010 at 7:09 pm #

    Bonsoir,
    Je me sers du MMS, et tout va bien, je prends actuellement 5 gouttes (dilué avec l’acide citrique).
    Je suis en pleine forme avec le MMS, et pourtant je travaille dans lieu public hautement fréquenté.

    J’ai eu l’information du MMS grâce à un ami qui avait un cancer de la prostate avancé, il a été guéri en 3 jours, du moins les symptômes étaient tous partis en 3 jours, il pouvait uriner normalement, un grand soulagement pour lui, et 3 semaines plus tard, il est allé à l’hôpital pour faire des examens, et le diagnostic était bien sûr que le cancer avait disparu.
    Voici le verdict qui lui a été dit:
    “Vous n’avez plus rien Monsieur, c’est une guérison inexpliquée”.

    Au plaisir à Tous !

    Jérôme

    • Kristjan Wager October 24, 2010 at 7:17 pm #

      Sorry Jerome, but claims of miracle cures for prostate cancer, especially in an advanced stage, won’t cut it here. We need evidence for such claims – quite extraordinary evidence, as the claim is quite extraordinary.

      Until then, you’re just another quack pushing dangerous advice to people with incurable, and often terminal, diseases.

  116. Maria October 24, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    Great Jerome, drive them crazy in french……. lol! lol! . Don’t you worry, in time all of them, even a solicitor will have an answer to your quest!!

    • Kristjan Wager October 24, 2010 at 8:42 pm #

      Yes, because none of us speak French, and the we are certainly not able to use google translate.

      • Maria October 24, 2010 at 8:56 pm #

        Of course you are able, that it is how I did it, oh wow! At least you can think out of the sheepishly context!
        Maybe you could do it more often, instead of following someone, follow your own instinct and save yourself from the misery of some degenerative diseases.

  117. Blackprojects October 24, 2010 at 9:08 pm #

    French to English Translation of the French ABOVE oh and Maria you are wrong I have a lot of French Speaker”s I know who can translate this load of Crap into English so we can teell your Freind to HOP off like the Good Little TOAD he is!

    Good evening,
    I am useful myself of the ms, and all is well, I currently take 5 drops (diluted with the citric acid).
    I am in full form with the ms, and yet I work in public place highly attended.
    I had the information of the ms thanks to a friend who had a advanced cancer of the prostate, it was cured in 3 days, at least the symptoms had left all in 3 days, it could urinate normally, a great relief for him, and 3 weeks later, it went to the hospital to make examinations, and the diagnosis was of course that cancer had disappeared.
    Here the verdict which was tell to him:
    “You do not have anything any more Sir, it is an unexplained cure”.
    With the pleasure with All!
    Jerome

    • MMS is a scam October 25, 2010 at 12:17 am #

      I read and speak french with no problem. Doesn’t matter what the language is — MMS is still a scam product, MMS does not cure anything. If MMS was able to kill cancer cells, then it would kill normal cells as well, the person would become very sick.

      Maria — please answer — why does your IP address hail from Florida even though you emphatically state you are from Guatemala City. One lie usually begets more lies.

      • Andrew October 25, 2010 at 6:29 pm #

        Have you thought of the possibility of a straight up troll?

  118. Passby October 26, 2010 at 4:48 am #

    Stumble upon this web when i researched about MMS after the news “Schoolboy exposes phony drug” came on the singapore news a few days. http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_592438.html

    After reading all the comments above, i think that it’s quite useless to talk any sense or get into any arguement with maria because
    1) she’s brainwashed
    2) She might be jim humble himself!

    The fact is right in front of her, but she is sooooo blinded to see it.

    anyway,Rhys Morgan did a great job!!More people would now know about how harmful this MMS thing is…

    • passerby October 26, 2010 at 4:51 am #

      came on the news a few days ago*

  119. Alison Hiscock October 27, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    Rhys, I haven’t watched your video, but read about your exposure of MMS on Ben Goldacre’s Bad Science website, and I have now read your blog article.

    Well done on a brilliant expose, and on taking further action with trading standards etc.

    Have you considered a career in investigative journalism?

  120. Zeno October 27, 2010 at 11:44 am #

    Alison Hiscock

    Investigative journalism certainly needs more who can do proper investigation, but Rhy’s undoubted talents would be wasted in journalism!

  121. Zeno October 27, 2010 at 12:09 pm #

    Oops! That should be Rhys’s, of course.

  122. MMS is a scam November 3, 2010 at 5:10 am #

    Here’s a link with lots of interesting stuff related to MMS.

    http://www.esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

    Note — “In 2010, the MMS inventor presented a special form of application, the MMS gas bag. Two plastic garbage bags are put into one another, forming a closed room and are sealed with tape. An opening is then cut into the upper end. Then a small bowl containing activated MMS is put into the gas bag, allowing the formation of Chlorine dioxide. The user then enters the gas bag naked, exposing their skin to the gas.”

    Will the quackery ever end?

  123. Pernille Nylehn November 7, 2010 at 10:26 pm #

    Hi everyone!
    Norwegian health authorities have FINALLY come up with a warning against MMS. In case some of you can read Norwegian, here’s the url: http://www.helsedirektoratet.no/portal/page?_pageid=134%2C67665&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&navigation1_parentItemId=937&navigation2_parentItemId=937&navigation2_selectedItemId=1351&_piref134_76551_134_67665_67665.artSectionId=330&_piref134_76551_134_67665_67665.articleId=768344

    According to this, WHO have also issued a warning. I can’t find it on their web, but maybe someone else can?

    The next step should be prohibiting the crap, but how to go about it?

  124. Jonathan Campbell November 12, 2010 at 3:43 pm #

    Bravo, Rhys. Your post and video are wonderful, insightful, and clear. Too bad so many so-called “adults” have been taken in by this dangerous scam. See my website article: http://www.cqs.com/mms.htm

    You will see on my website that I actually promote proven, effective alternative, naturopathic treatments for serious chronic diseases. (Unfortunately Crohn’s Disease is not one of them, although you may find some good information in Michael Murray’s Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine, he has an entire chapter of the book on Crohn’s.)

    What these fake remedies like MMS do, besides hurting a lot of people, is to discredit anything alternative, and that is truly unfortunate.

    Keep up your good work, with the knowledge that sometimes you may unearth something truly evil like MMS, and you will become the target of their hate mail. I’ve done that more than once – for exposing colloidal silver and liquid zeolite on my website. I have already gotten some hate mail for my MMS post. Welcome to the whistleblowers club. It’s sometimes not a fun experience, but if you think of their hate mails as a measure of your good work, then you can have a different perspective on them.

    Kind regards
    Jonathan

    • Zeno November 12, 2010 at 3:56 pm #

      Jonathan

      Whilst your support for Rhys and condemnation of purveyors of MMS is laudable, I found this statement (cached) on your website:

      The Natural Cancer Therapy is a complete, safe, non-toxic cancer therapy, based on the research of Dr. Matthias Rath, Dr. Hugh Riordan, and others. It can be used instead of standard oncological cancer therapy. This therapy has been shown to reverse cancer, stop cancer spread and metastases, and enhance health. Taken after standard oncology therapy, the regimen helps to rebuild and maintain the immune system and prevent metastases. It is non-toxic and has no adverse side effects.

      Care to explain that one? It would appear to be a clear breach of the UK’s Cancer Act 1939.

      • Pernille Nylehn November 12, 2010 at 7:42 pm #

        And what about this page about Avian influenza and swine flu: http://www.cqs.com/influenza.htm

        “The way to prepare yourself and protect your family from any influenza is not a vaccine or anti-viral drug. I strongly recommend that if vaccines and/or anti-viral drugs are offered to you, that you refuse them. These actually reduce your immunity, and can be very harmful”

        And he recommends taking a prophylactic dose of 2-4000 mg vitamin per meal, and if one does get ill, increase it up to 2000 mg every hour. He also recommends taking large amounts of oregano oil, turmeric extract, ginger, quercetin, garlic, N-acetyl cysteine (NAC), and green tea. Even, if necessary, 30-gram intravenous vitamin C infusions 2-3 times weekly, with higher dosages if necessary for pneumonia or previously compromised immunity (e.g., AIDS or CFIDS).”

        As far as I know, a dose of more than 8 g vitamin C per day 8 for days running may cause serious poisoning and risk of kidney damage. Campbell recommends up to 24 grams per day.

        He also recommends “natural therapy guides” for cancer, heart disease, AIDS, or hepatitis. He actually claims AIDS is not caused by HIV, and can be treated by “intense nutritional therapy”.

        Jonathan Campbell, you’re a quack. A dangerous one.

        Pernille Nylehn
        MD

    • Judge Judy November 12, 2010 at 8:07 pm #

      You’ve dug your own grave here Jonathan. People here treat objects like women … and that is on nice days. You will be threatened with castration and if you persist Dr. Pernille herself will show you some genuine Nowegian bedside manner and remove your testicles with a rusty knife.

      • Pernille Nylehn November 12, 2010 at 9:53 pm #

        Now, Judy, that wouldn’t be polite, would it? ;)

  125. Alan November 21, 2010 at 11:43 am #

    Hello Mr. Morgan, my name is Alan Hindle, I’m a writer and editor at Snipe Magazine in London. I recently covered The Amaz!ng Day event and I’m trying to do a series of interviews with those who were involved or presented there. By the way, congratulations on your Grassroots Award! I’m wondering if I could send you a few questions to answer, to publish in the online mag? Snipe is at http://www.snipe.at and the article I wrote about TAM can be seen at

    http://snipe.at/metropolis/review-the-amazng-meeting-what-happens-when-cory-doctorow-stephen-fry-alan-moore-and-the-amazing-randi-play-host-to-1000-of-their-closest-friends

    Cheers very much,

    Yours,

    Alan Hindle
    Snipe Magazine

  126. Bev November 24, 2010 at 7:25 pm #

    Hi Rhys

    I just saw you on the One show and was interested as I also have Crohn’s so can also understand people’s wish for some miracle cure.

    I was shocked the way the Crohn’s forum behaved. When I was diagnosed in 2005 I came across one called Crohnzone which I am still a member of but rarely use at the moment, I as you, pop in for questions etc Luckily I have found it a great support over the years and I think I met more sceptics like you and I than believers of faddy cures.

    You are clearly a very inteligent young man and best luck for the future, you’ll make a great Doctor!

    Beverly Sedge

  127. Ben November 24, 2010 at 7:25 pm #

    Just seen you on Tele (don’t know the program, mums got it on, HA!). Kudo’s to you, good research, a lot of back-up there. Considering bleach can strip skin when concentrated, I would leave the people who drink it (after reading warnings) to it.
    Certainly not for me, you have my support!

  128. Margaret Craner November 24, 2010 at 7:37 pm #

    I have just watched The One Show and was so impressed with what you have done about the so called Miracle Cures. I have added a link to this page on my blog to point other crafters to your research. Many crafters are suffering from medical problems, so they would be vulnerable to this kind of selling. I hope that is ok with you. If not, please contact me and I will remove the link. Meanwhile, well done.

    • Ben November 24, 2010 at 7:42 pm #

      I too, may in fact add this link to my site to further the availability to the public.

  129. Christine Tao November 24, 2010 at 7:50 pm #

    Just saw your coverage on the one show – well done!

    I am ridiculously impressed

  130. Phil November 24, 2010 at 8:44 pm #

    Rhys, seen you on the one show today, you’re doing a crackin’ job mate, keep it up.

    Given that your Crohn’s forum Mods were not doing much to stop people peddling bleach, have you thought about starting your own?

    I guess it would be a big undertaking, but clearly the forum you were on is not very good if it will allow dangerous advice to be posted and not even questioned.

    Good luck with with the Doctor thing, hope it works out for you. You’ve certainly got the right attitude for it.

    All the best
    Phil

  131. Ania November 28, 2010 at 9:48 pm #

    It’s a shame to see that MMS is being slated. We have used it successfully for a variety of illnesses, having done our own thorough research. Yet, no-one seems to be asking this: how many people die from using “conventional” or Big Pharma treatments? Answer = millions. If you do you research properly, you will not find ONE person who has died from MMS, but millions who have died from taking the drugs prescribed all over the world. It is true that the FDA and many other departments want to stop the use of MMS, exactly because they are protecting Big Pharma and their profits. Cancer is the No 1 earner for the medical industry in the USA, and it’s going that way here too. Don’t slate something that you have no idea about – I and my family and others I know will continue to use this and other non-toxic treatments – at least this won’t kill me unlike what doctors prescibe. Do your own proper and unbiased research and check if that isn’t the case. Funny how MMS is the ONLY known cure (in 24-48 hrs) of Malaria. PS – the reason people have a reaction to MMS is that it is actually killing off the virus or bacteria, and the reaction is the body trying to get it out of your system. I don’t have to be a doctor to know that about how my body works.

    • Amber K November 28, 2010 at 10:56 pm #

      Ania could you link to the publication of your research?

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 4:27 pm #

        Sorry Amber, my research does not cover any “publications” as such. There are records in Jim Humble’s own 2 books on how this works, as well as many websites and groups with members who have used and continue to use MMS, as well as our own results and that of people I know. I don’t use “scientific” research papers for research as a lot of them have been corrupted in that if some research says X is not a good thing to take for Y ailment, then the Pharma company will often bury that research and insist that the researcher change their report to show it is OK. I have seen this in a programme myself about GMO foods; if you Google Dr Arpad Pusztai, he is evidence of exactly this. He lost his research grant as he found that GM foods DID cause harm to the DNA of mice (and therefore to humans) as he wouldn’t state the opposite to the truth that he found.

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 5:55 pm #

        And why should we believe “Bishop” Humble’s writings in his book? Where does he describe his scientific methodology? Where is the ethical approval for his trials? Where is the informed consent from the trial subjects? Where is the scientific peer review?
        Plenty of cures for malaria – see
        http://www.traveldoctor.co.uk/malaria.htm
        As for Humble, you do know that he was prosecuted in Malawi for his activities, don’t you? Just in case you don’t see:-
        http://maravipost.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2653:quacks-fined-for-aids-treatment-without-licence&catid=71:health&Itemid=139

        So, of course the reason that your “research” doesn’t cover any “publications” is that there is no real, verifiable, credible scientific evidence to show MMS to be a safe and effective therapeutic agent. Sorry, but without proper scientific evidence, all we have is a load of pseudo-scientific nonsense with no evidence of benefit. What we also have are the reports of people seriously harmed by MMS and probable death as a result.

    • Phil November 28, 2010 at 11:16 pm #

      You don’t have to be a doctor to know how your body works… to an extent.

      You do have to be a doctor to offer people treatment advice for diseases, so please stop. What you are doing is pathetic.

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 4:28 pm #

        Phil, where did I write that I offered people treatment? Get your accusations right.

      • Phil November 29, 2010 at 6:41 pm #

        Perhaps all that bleach you’re drinking is affecting your eyesight.

        I said treatment advice, Jim humble (and I highly doubt that is his real name) is the wanker offering treatment.

        Malaria, Cancer, and all the other things MMS claims to cure are serious diseases, which people need to see a doctor about. Ordering some bleach of the internet wont work.

        Not only are you drawing people away from things which will cure or treat their condition, but you are actually encouraging them to cause themselves further harm.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

        Unfortunately doctors are failing to cure too many people today. The numbers of deaths due to medical interventions is skyrocketing and this in my view, is by design.

        My own doctor has privately admitted to me that he prefers much more to assist in diagnosis and leave the pharmacides out of use. Suffice to say I have seen him only once in the last ten years and that to ask his opinion over a muscular skeleton question.

        I would also add that I caught a member of the Royal College of Surgeons lying to me. This was not intentional, merely an absence of information given to him during his training. As a result I am pursuing him for injury.

        What the medical profession is doing is much worse than pathetic. It has become the servant to the eugenics agenda currently being deployed. Indeed there is very good reason for people to have ceased subscription to these practices.

    • Paul Morgan November 28, 2010 at 11:22 pm #

      Given the current state of the scientific evidence, it is imperative that MMS is exposed for the scam that it is. It is an industrial bleach. Ingesting it is harmful to human health.
      Actually, you do need to study human anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pathology, pharmacology, microbiology, etc. to know how the human body works, how diseases affect the body, and how it reacts to invading pathogens and to administered drugs.
      Malaria can be cured by a number of drugs – see http://www.traveldoctor.co.uk/malaria.htm
      Before you talk nonsense, engage your brain. As Abraham Lincoln said, “Better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt”.

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 4:39 pm #

        Paul, I’d rather be seen to be a fool than believe the rubbish that most people like you believe, we don’t take anything that the mainstream doctor, pharmaceuticals etc say. all you have to do is follow the money. We don’t expect the doctor to give us a pill for any health issues we have, and haven’t done so for many many years. By your reckoning, I/we should be dead if we’ve retained our responsibility for our health ourselves. Don’t you know about the “incentives” that doctor’s are offered to push onto patients, the latest drug of the month??? Wake up!
        If MMS was an industrial bleach, I should have been poisoned and seriously ill months ago, but I’m still here, and alive and well. For the record, we have actually studied for ourselves how the body works; we have a large library of related books that we use for health and wellness. This is not just the domain of doctors, but of people who care enough for their health and find out for themselves how their body works without expecting others to do it for them. And my brain is just fine, it’s more awake and aware of what’s REALLY going on than yours ever will be.

    • Justin Satov November 29, 2010 at 6:25 pm #

      As I have said to Jim Humble and his followers, you are indeed correct that there isn’t a known case of MMS killing anyone. Just as there are no clinically documented cases of it doing anything.

      To paraphrase Jim Humble’s words – there isn’t a high enough concentration to kill anybody. But there also isn’t a high enough concentration to do, well, anything. Some people have reactions to it, as drinking bleach tends to do, but other than that, it does NOTHING. No good, no bad, no ugly; just plain old nothing.

      Also of note, “do you research properly” lends itself to the idea that we should ignore proven science in favour of a B.S. miracle cure created by a GOLD PROSPECTOR! This man has zero qualifications to be dabbling in medicine, nor does he have any credibility in the scientific community. He told me in an email that he has written four books, yet I searched the ISBN database and could find only his MMS book.

      You don’t even need to research MMS to know it’s crap – just research Jim Humble. Look up the photos that he was “in” where it’s clearly and poorly photoshopped. Try to find the “4 books” that he “wrote”. Read up on his life. In fact, here’s another lie I caught him in. He states in an interview that he believes in God, that he’s a Christian. Yet in an email he tells me that he does not. I’ll send you unedited copies of our email exchange if you wish.

  132. Ania November 28, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    PPS – there are MANY known, used and successful cures for cancer. I know of one person locally to me who has run a mile from the “conventional” cures of chemo, surgery, etc, and yet he WORKS IN the medical profession himself. If you ask doctors themselves, very few would succumb to the barbaric treatment for cancer still being used today; in this arena there seems to have been no significant improvement in treatment to 50 yrs ago if you actually take a long hard look at the history and progress in this field. Go figure that out before knocking any “natural cures” that don’t involve pharmaceuticals, are low cost and can’t be patented.

    • Paul Morgan November 28, 2010 at 11:12 pm #

      Sorry, Ania, but this is bollocks. There have been massive advances in the treatment of, and survival from, cancer and – thanks to the work of cancer doctors and cancer scientists – these improvements continue.
      http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/%20?openFull=1#list
      As for the “alternative” medicine cancer cures, perhaps you could give specific, verifiable examples of such a “cure” working, in the form of peer-reviewed scientific publications? No?
      So, before you post here or elsewhere about things you clearly know sod all about, engage your brain and do some research, rather than believing the crap spouted by “alt-med” supporters.

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 4:45 pm #

        Paul, as you well know there are very few peer-reviewed scientific publications about other cures for cancer – as Big Pharma won’t allow them!!! Nor will they pay for them to be done otherwise THEY LOSE MONEY!!! When will people like you realise what’s going on? This is exactly why I NEVER give to ANY cancer charity – the people who work there have their hearts in the right place, but those at the top, know the score (as in cancer is curable) but you will never hear that from them.
        I don’t need to quote peer-reviewed papers when I have read about the stories myself or know people who have cured themselves. Why would I believe a less than true peer-reviewed paper as opposed to real people and their stories of what they did? And yes my brain is engaged, I’m just that I’m not brainwashed like you have been, and I have seen what the truth is about all these types of topics. By the way, which pharmaceutical company do you work for?

      • Adam November 29, 2010 at 4:53 pm #

        Ania, are you seriously claiming that there is a MASSIVE conspiracy, started by Big Pharma, but which all medical journals and the entire medical profession are in on?

        Just stop and think for a minute about how likely that really is.

        There are no alt-med cures for cancer. If there really were, and they worked, it would be impossible to keep it a secret, even if big pharma wanted to.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

        This reply is to Paul Morgan
        “This is indeed the planet earth and as I write, the numbers of people suffering under the so called medical impositions is in the billions. Pharmaceutical trials on both animals are a violation. Those conducted upon humans, occur all too often in places where the people will only gain access to medicines if they sign up for trials and these are invariably in places where their subsequent injuries or even deaths go unreported.

        Trials on serving military personnel are ongoing and resulted in the Gulf War syndrome through the use of squalene oils (now in Cervarix & Gardasil) that are now being deployed to our young women by deception.

        Those of you posting here on behalf of what is laughably called “conventional medicine” (although its appearance is an entirely modern phenomena), should know that the real issues causing so much dis-ease are rarely addressed and that furthermore, those pharmaceutical corporations have very dubious beginnings. e.g. Baxters International can be traced back to I G Farben (I G Auschwitz).

        Your medical maniacs killed my mother, they gave her cancer of the intestines through the seasonal flu vaccine. They never cured her, instead she was given more poison and drugged into oblivion. All paid for by our taxes.

        One of my daughters nearly had her newborn daughter snatched by the SS because she did not want to take a highly risky prophylactic imposition that was not needed (statistically proven). Her infant was subsequently made seriously ill and received substances that without a strong control over her diet, may well have an impact on her later in life.

        This is what happens when those selected to medicate people are chosen on their capacity to accept rubbish for truth. It is only the discerning amongst their number that reveal what it is to be a healer, and look at what happens to them.

        Dr Andrew Wakefield, hounded and vilified by the GMC! Why because his work threatened the eugenics agenda. Yet his work has been not only repeated and shown to be based upon good science in a growing number of places throughout the globe.”

        WHat you have posted is both deceitful and inaccurate. Cancer is one of the modern day epidemics and modern medicines capacity to cure people is negligible if not only occurs because the recipient of the poisonous treatments has sufficient resilience to recover.

        Cancer is curable but unfortunately for the less well informed and duped, it is one of the biggest money spinners and means to cull populations.

        Go and look up the impact of fluorine compounds in the environment and then come back here and tell me why the Royal College of Surgeons recommends that it is given to people through drinking water and dentistry.

        This is what your perverse system is doing you know, actively engaging in killing people and cancer is just one of the strings on its discordant fiddle.

  133. Zeno November 28, 2010 at 10:46 pm #

    Ania said: “Go figure”

    I did. It’s an anecdote.

    • Ania November 29, 2010 at 5:14 pm #

      Adam, all I will say on this tpoic of cancer is Wake Up, look around and find out what’s really going on. I’m not going to write anything more on this blog as there’s no point trying to educate and awaken people whose brains and minds are completely dead.

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 5:44 pm #

        Ania,
        I think the person here with a dead mind is you. You really are talking through your anus. You are completely deluded if you believe that “Big Pharma” is suppressing cancer cures or cures for anything else. While they are in the business of making money, they could do so at lot more easily if the drugs were that simple to test and manufacture. Why else would they spend billions of dollars/euros/pounds on drug research?
        Actually, you DO need to read the trials published in peer-reviewed scientific/medical journals. You need to understand the clinical trials process in order to understand how trials are used to prove or disprove the safety and efficacy of therapies. What you talk about are unverifiable anecdotes – these are not scientific evidence.
        I don’t work for any pharmaceutical companies – I’m a doctor in the NHS in the UK.
        You claim your brain is engaged – I don’t see any evidence of this here.

      • Adam November 29, 2010 at 5:44 pm #

        Hi Ania

        Since I work in medical research, I actually have a pretty good idea what’s really going on. And it doesn’t involve huge conspiracies.

        I would love you to try to “educate” me, but I suspect you’d just spout more bollocks like you’ve done above.

  134. Zeno November 29, 2010 at 5:04 pm #

    Ania

    Wow! You’ve seen a programme about Pusztai?!!!

    Fortunately, many of us require a bit more information than some TV programme before making up our minds about things, particularly anything to do with health. (BTW, you really should look at his original research and see what he did and did not find.)

    However this has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that MMS is dangerous and has no benefits – other than a fatter wallet for its sellers.

    • Ania November 29, 2010 at 5:12 pm #

      Zeno, we’ll agree to disagree. I can’t be bothered any more as it’s obvious what’s going on here.

      • Rhys Morgan November 29, 2010 at 5:14 pm #

        Go on then, Ania.
        What exactly IS going on here?
        Please, do let me know!
        - Rhys

      • Zeno November 29, 2010 at 5:34 pm #

        Ania said:

        I can’t be bothered any more as it’s obvious what’s going on here.

        Typical of the Big Quacka supporters – the going gets tough when you’re asked to supply proper evidence, so you give up.

        People’s health is important – that’s why we need robust evidence and not anecdotes.

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 5:59 pm #

        Can’t be bothered or is that you actually realise that firstly there is no evidence of MMS being a safe and effective therapeutic agent and secondly that MMS is dangerous to health?
        If you have any real evidence, rather than spouting the same rubbish that other “alt-med” quacks typically come out with, please supply it so that we can subject it to proper scientific scrutiny.

  135. ts November 29, 2010 at 5:12 pm #

    Here’s an article written by a doctor that gives furthr clarification on MMS effeccts on the body:

    MMS: Miracle Mineral Solution or Trojan Horse? Your Body and DNA Decide

    http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213275-MMS-Miracle-Mineral-Solution-or-Trojan-Horse-Your-Body-and-DNA-Decide

    • Judge Judy November 29, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

      Yes, peer-reviewed research is a valuable resource:

      “A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million. Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million. The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million. The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251.”

      Reading that, I wonder, how many people have died as a result of MMS? Can anyone answer this?

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 6:36 pm #

        Judge Judy – please give the source of your quote.

        There are fundamental differences between licensed medicines and quackery such as MMS. You can conduct real research to find out the adverse effect profiles of medicines. For example:-
        http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/default.htm
        Just Google “drug adverse effects” to find multiple sites giving the adverse effect profiles. Drugs undergo extensive clinical trials and then there is post-marketing surveillance to pick up problems such as the recent withdrawal of rosiglitazone.
        The current USA population is over 310 million. What is the actual rate of serious adverse effects? How many of the unnecessary hospitalisations and deaths reported were due to adverse drug reactions?
        When it comes to so-called “alternative” medicines, the adverse effects are never spoken about. Instead you get stupid statements where the effects of MMS (nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, dehydration) are passed off as being “the body getting rid of toxins”. Total nonsense – it’s the body trying to get rid of the poison just ingested.
        There are numerous reports of people being harmed by MMS and one probable death. See:-
        http://www.theage.com.au/national/miracle-elixir-linked-to-death-illness-20100821-13a2z.html
        Why else, do you think, is it being banned in the USA, Canada, Australia, UK, Europe, Africa?

      • Ania November 29, 2010 at 7:51 pm #

        Thanks for this Judge Judy, I rest my case. And it will be the same in many other countries.
        So a few people being hospitalised and one possibly dying after taking MMS, yet it’s STILL OK for the health care system and Big harma to kill millions of people? No doubt those of you on here who have slated my views will also berate homeopathy (yes, I was brought up on it in the 60′s and use it today), will berate those of us who do not vaccinate their children (based on several sound books which gave referenceable sources), and will also berate those of us who saw the Swine Flu con coming, which was not based on science but based on making as much money as possible! And so it goes … I’m glad my comments have stirred things up. It proves that many people still do not see what is going on – that the world you live in is not what you think it is. We have researched, looked for and found answers to so many other questions on topics that are not as they seem; go ahead and live life your way. Just don’t expect people like us, who know there are safe and viable alternatives 1) to shut up and say nothing and 2) to succumb to your narrow minded ways of dealing with the many and varied health issues around today, most if not all, which are curable.

    • Justin Satov November 29, 2010 at 6:59 pm #

      Great article. It kills me that this information is out there in abundance and WE are being told to do “proper research”.

      • Judge Judy November 29, 2010 at 7:58 pm #

        Interesting how privately I was accused of the owner of this blog for being an apologist for alternative medicine for inquiring how many deaths have been attributed to MMS.

        Another question comes to mind, how many serious injuries that required medical intervention can be attributed to MMS?

        Of course I realize that antibiotics has nothing to do with MMS. I was simply putting into perspective the size of the MMS “problem.”

        Surely you can’t fault me for asking for hard numbers? Surely you can direct me to more than Australian newspaper articles?

        Maybe MMS IS dangerous and should be banned. I am open to that idea but am asking for more than what has been offered.

    • Ania November 29, 2010 at 8:09 pm #

      Oxygenation and oxidation are not the same. Ask the Doctors on this thread, they should know as I obviously don’t!

      • Paul Morgan November 29, 2010 at 11:23 pm #

        Ania – as I have said before, to quote Abraham Lincoln: it is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I have a message for you – this is planet Earth.
        I asked Judge Judy for the actual reference, but this has not been provided. Having seen a similar article before, I would like to actually know where this has come from to ensure that the figures quoted are based on fact rather than speculation and quoting out of context. Without this information, this is garbage. I asked how many of the people apparently injured by health care systems were harmed by serious adverse drug reactions – I am yet to have this question answered.
        With regard to MMS, the chemistry is clear cut and the toxicology is also readily available. See:-
        http://www.scotmas.com/what-we-do/chlorine-dioxide/background-faqs/regulatory-environment.aspx?language=en-gb
        and
        http://www.scotmas.com/what-we-do/chlorine-dioxide/background-faqs/reaction-chemistry.aspx?language=en-gb
        There have be no clinical trials to show MMS to be a safe and effective therapeutic agent. None. Zero.
        There are multiple anecdotes where people post their “experience” with MMS – totally unverifiable and about as believable as advertisements that pre-date the introduction of codes to prevent false claims being made. MMS banned in the USA because of reports of serious harm, banned in Canada because of reports of serious harm. Particularly good is the website of an MMS supplier in Australia, whose website contains a disclaimer:-
        http://www.mmsbuyaustralia.com.au/
        The Health Canada website warning of the dangers of MMS is pretty damning:-
        http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/_2010/2010_74-eng.php
        200 times the tolerable daily intake of sodium chlorite!!!
        Also:-
        http://efoodalert.blogspot.com/2010/10/miracle-mineral-solution-mms-anything.html
        So, here we have a product with no proven health benefits, no properly conducted clinical trials, a load of completely nonsensical claims made about its (unproven) benefits, readily available information on its chemistry and toxicology (it’s pretty toxic), and reports of harm from many countries across the world. On the other hand, we have drugs that have been tested through the clinical trials process and assessed for their benefits and their adverse effect profiles (readily available on Internet searches). For these drugs the risk-benefit ratio can clearly be assessed – the same cannot be said for MMS where there have been no clinical trials. No-one in the healthcare professions will ever say that drugs are 100% safe and foolproof. You never here such honesty from “alt med” quacks.
        As for homeopathy, try looking at the real scientific research:-
        http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)67879-8/fulltext
        In other words, its no better than placebo.
        Put another way:-
        http://jonn.co.uk/badhomeopathy/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=4

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:24 pm #

        This reply is directed at Paul Morgan

        I would rather stand and speak out at the now overt eugenics/population control agenda and its deceptions (that include the pharmacides) that are poisoning our people than remain quietly hidden in the shaddows.

        It is very significant when we examine the training and induction methods employed for the selection of medical practitioners these days. There is little doubt in my mind, that they are being used as part of this evil agenda. This I know from personal experience along with the various groups to with which I associate.

        This is indeed the planet earth and as I write, the numbers of people suffering under the so called medical impositions is in the billions. Pharmaceutical trials on both animals are a violation. Those conducted upon humans, occur all too often in places where the people will only gain access to medicines if they sign up for trials and these are invariably in places where their subsequent injuries or even deaths go unreported.

        Trials on serving military personnel are ongoing and resulted in the Gulf War syndrome through the use of squalene oils (now in Cervarix & Gardasil) that are now being deployed to our young women by deception.

        Those of you posting here on behalf of what is laughably called “conventional medicine” (although its appearance is an entirely modern phenomena), should know that the real issues causing so much dis-ease are rarely addressed and that furthermore, those pharmaceutical corporations have very dubious beginnings. e.g. Baxters International can be traced back to I G Farben (I G Auschwitz).

        Your medical maniacs killed my mother, they gave her cancer of the intestines through the seasonal flu vaccine. They never cured her, instead she was given more poison and drugged into oblivion. All paid for by our taxes.

        One of my daughters nearly had her newborn daughter snatched by the SS because she did not want to take a highly risky prophylactic imposition that was not needed (statistically proven). Her infant was subsequently made seriously ill and received substances that without a strong control over her diet, may well have an impact on her later in life.

        This is what happens when those selected to medicate people are chosen on their capacity to accept rubbish for truth. It is only the discerning amongst their number that reveal what it is to be a healer, and look at what happens to them.

        Dr Andrew Wakefield, hounded and vilified by the GMC! Why because his work threatened the eugenics agenda. Yet his work has been not only repeated and shown to be based upon good science in a growing number of places througout the globe.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

        This reply is directed at Paul Morgan

        I would rather stand and speak out at the now overt eugenics/population control agenda and its deceptions (that include the pharmacides) that are poisoning our people than remain quietly hidden in the shaddows.

        It is very significant when we examine the training and induction methods employed for the selection of medical practitioners these days. There is little doubt in my mind, that they are being used as part of this evil agenda. This I know from personal experience along with the various groups to with which I associate.

  136. Hughes November 29, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    Wow! What can you say to somebody who thinks that drinking bleach is a good idea? I guess all you can do is be vigilant and make sure they don’t try to convince anybody else.

    • Judge Judy November 29, 2010 at 8:43 pm #

      Thank you for that Rhys. As I have stated before, I am MMS-agnostic. You may be correct in your fight against this product. I do not know. Your supporters attack others by asking for hard numbers, yet when I ask them for the same they obfuscate. How many deaths can be attributed to MMS? How many injuries that required medical treatment have been reported?

      If close to a million Americans die from causes that can be traced directly to medical intervention every year and no one dies from MMS, how concerned should we be?

      • mms is a scam November 30, 2010 at 5:36 am #

        Maybe people die of diseases not medical intervention.

        Ania — you are so full of crap your eyes must be brown — you remind me of Maria.

        Big Pharma doesn’t quash cancer cures — I used to work on an pediatric onconology ward — yes, children left in remission to go on and live full and productive lives without any setbacks — I would call that a cure. If these children had been given MMS they would be DEAD. It’s a moot point because MMS has been banned for being a quack worthless therapy.

        Provide some PROOF that MMS works — Big Pharma has nothing to do with MMS — just a stupid argument to obscure the fact that MMS does nothing. IF you believe that MMS does anthing — you are incredibly stupid and might want to pursue an education in physiology, biology, chemistry …. your arguments are ridiculous — without merit — you have been suckered in by illogical thinking, use your mind critically, you might realize the truth.

        Just another minion of Saint Humble spamming us.

      • Judge November 30, 2010 at 12:10 pm #

        @Paul,

        When someone tells me something is dangerous my immediate thought is “In relation to what?” I could have provided numbers on tobacco, alcohol, Mad Cow Disease, airplane crashes, terrorist attacks and dog bites. The numbers of people who have been killed or injured from these is readily available, as are the numbers of those who have been killed by “medical error.” What are the numbers regarding MMS? I am open to the idea that MMS is dangerous. Show me the numbers without diverting to wild attacks on homeopathy.

      • Amber K November 30, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

        Judge Judy,
        Paul has provided you with multiple links regarding the toxicity of MMS and yet you keep asking for proof of its toxicity. Then you label his link to a study showing homeopathy isn’t effective a “wild attack on homeopathy.” This seems a bit biased for an “MMS agnostic.”

        The reason we don’t have solid statistics of deaths and injury caused by MMS is that unlike regulated medicines there is no way to know. Jim Humble says he’s given MMS to 75,000 people and yet he kept no verifiable record of his “patients” and we have no way of knowing how many people died after taking it. We do know that there is absolutely no way he would admit that they died from taking MMS, whereas there are solid, trackable statistics of people dying from medical malpractice or drug interaction. That’s what science is all about – we do the research, publish and review the findings.

        What we do have is proof of MMS’s toxicity (as shown above) and multiple (just go to the requisite government sites in the US, Australia, Canada, etc) instances of hospitalization due to MMS.

        Until someone (perhaps one of the many people that are making a fortune off of MMS) would like to do the actual research and publish their findings we would know the answer to your question. That’s not going to happen by real scientists in the US or elsewhere, not because of Big Pharma but because it isn’t ethical to feed someone a poison and watch how long it takes them to get sick from it.

      • Justin Satov November 30, 2010 at 2:42 pm #

        @Judge Judy
        In all fairness, “tobacco, alcohol, Mad Cow Disease, airplane crashes, terrorist attacks and dog bites” could all be valid reasons to go to the hospital supposing you aren’t dead first. Particularly with dog bites, in the US there are between 20 and 40 fatalities per year, which make up something like 0.00001% of all dog bites. So with that in mind, one could say that hospitals are doing a fantastic job.

        Jump to MMS. Jim Humble himself has mentioned that (I’m paraphrasing here) there are an estimated 2,000,000 people using MMS, and yet he only states that 100,000 have been saved. Not quite as good as dog bites.

        Just saying…

      • Judge Judy November 30, 2010 at 3:04 pm #

        @ Amber,

        I wasn’t asking for info related to toxicity but numbers of those who have died and been injured by MMS. I mentioned homeopathy because it seems to me to have nothing to do with this situation with MMS …

        @ Justin,

        I have no idea what you are “just saying.”

        This conversation around MMS has activated the fear meme in most of the participants. I need a good reason before I become fearful about anything.

      • Justin Satov November 30, 2010 at 3:11 pm #

        @Judge Judy
        I’m saying that you want numbers on MMS to compare against the healthcare system, and that’s ridiculous. Something that’s been around for what, 10 years, vs. something that’s been around for thousands. Something that has treated a handful of crazies vs. something that has treated MOST of the developed world. I mean, the difference in numbers alone is astronomical.

        Not to mention, the information is out there as to why MMS is bad. Read about sodium chlorite out of an MMS context and you can find out why it’s bad. That alone should be enough, but you only seem to be interested in who has died. Fact is, you’d need a lot more of it to kill you. Killing your clients is bad for business.

      • Judge Judy November 30, 2010 at 3:18 pm #

        @ Justin,

        I want numbers to compare MMS against anything. Pick anything you want.

      • Paul Morgan November 30, 2010 at 5:18 pm #

        Firstly, the attack on homeopathy was not “wild” – Ania stated that she believed in homeopathy, so I pointed out the complete lack of evidence of benefit and the evidence that shows it to be no better than placebo. When we are talking about a multi-million dollar industry that is simply scamming its user, I think it’s vitally important to point this out when someone brings this into the debate.
        The known facts about MMS are plain for all to see – it’s an industrial bleach with well-documented toxicology. There are reports of serious harm and a probable death. If – and it’s a very big “if” – we were talking about a drug with known, proven beneficial effects, then we could draw up a risk-benefit analysis to determine whether this therapy was worthwhile for the diseases it had been proven to treat. However, MMS has no known, proven beneficial therapeutic effects. Therefore we are talking about a substance for which the risk-benefit analysis is no benefit and all risk. We may never know how many people who have been harmed by MMS, for reasons which have been discussed elsewhere. See also http://www.quackwatch.org

    • Justin Satov November 30, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

      @Judge Judy
      Coconuts falling out of trees. People tumbling down stairs. People getting hit by trains. It doesn’t matter because it’s not comparable. The fact is there are no credible numbers that you CAN research for MMS. The only numbers that I’ve been able to find are the numbers provided by Jim Humble; although, if you follow anything he says, you’ll notice that they change an awful lot. Sometimes he’s helping 75,000, sometimes 200,000, sometimes 100,000.

      I don’t think I want to bother arguing this with you any more. You want all these numbers of other things that have killed people so that you can compare it against falsified and fictitious numbers. On that theory alone you have failed from the start. You need a subject with proportional figures, but you can’t find that because figures don’t exist for MMS.

      If you really want to see for yourself whether or not this is a bad product, buy some and test it on yourself.

      • Rhys Morgan November 30, 2010 at 3:47 pm #

        Judge judy, can I ask why you still seem to think you need deaths before something is dangerous? That is the impression I’m getting from your comments.

  137. Zeno November 30, 2010 at 3:54 pm #

    Judge Judy said:

    I wasn’t asking for info related to toxicity but numbers of those who have died and been injured by MMS.

    Presumably Jim Humble has set up an independent reporting system so that any adverse effects can be properly documented and dealt with (perhaps with the necessary monetary compensation for any damage done)? That would be the ethical and right thing to do, don’t you agree?

    Or does he just know there will never be any such adverse effects?

    • Judge Judy November 30, 2010 at 4:31 pm #

      @Rhys,

      I asked for deaths AND injuries, not only deaths. Is there another criteria for “dangerous?”

      @Zeno,

      I think it would be wise for Mr. Humble to have liability insurance.

  138. Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 9:38 pm #

    I have read, albeit briefly through this thread and notice that once again, we have the manifestation of the allopathic pushers versus those of us, more keenly aware of the numerous healing methods many of which surpass modern biocidal concoctions ion both efficacy and more importantly in that they follow the philosophy of Hippocrates.

    Rhys, I would have to say to you, that there are some things in this world, that may appear as one thing, but when properly scrutinised,are shown to be completely opposite.

    To begin with, in your video you express shock at the notion that some of us, prefer to provide our own medical care and should by rights have the freedom to use any substance upon ourselves or our families that we are confident will provide healing. You will also find that we do not “practice medicine” since the very idea that in this day and age, the medical profession seem incapable of curing their patients.

    You also refer to the FDA as though it is some kind of respectable entity and here I would suggest to you that its corridors have long since become infested with former officers of corporations from the pharmacidal manufacturers and some of these (e.g. Donald Rumsfeld former exec. of GD Searle, once in office ensured that the substance known as Aspartame received approval despite it causing over 90 adverse reactions within recipients.

    Few people realise that the plethora of poisonous substances being peddled by modern day medicine all carry adverse reactions, yet before these impositions, the traditional knowledge of plant lore and healing had ensured that populations for more than ten millennia had grown without such impositions.

    Now to be more specific about MMS and most importantly, your own condition. There was a time, in the not too distant past, that the sick, provided they were well enough, would travel great distances to “take the waters”. Now these practices stretch back again, many millennia. Indeed one of the locations that this occurred is now known as Bath, a place of very special interest in this respect. Now what was special about “Aqua Sulis”, so much so that the Romans occupied it and built an entire settlement around it. The answer is the mineral content of the water.

    Now let us move on to the so called qualified medical practitioners and the plethora of toxic allopathic substances peddled. Has it not occurred to you, or those assisting you in the preparation of your scripts, that we are seeing larger and larger numbers of people suffering apparently incurable dis-ease in our times. Epidemics of cancer, diabetes, obesity and any number of neurological disorders are a plague in the modern age. And what pray are the answers proffered by the modern day practices, toxic substances that are designed to alleviate the symptom but almost without exception cause other effects many of which lead to the prescribing of even more substances many of which are known carcinogens, mutagenic compounds and neurological poisons, but above all, THAT DISRUPT THE GASTRO-INTESTINAL SYSTEM!

    Does that ring any bells, the disruption of the gastro-intestinal system. And seriously if you are going to express outrage, then perhaps I should point you to the FDA approved! vaccine Cervarix, which amongst a host of other unpleasant substances, contains ALUMINIUM HYDROXIDE, a known irritant and one that is known to impact the brain!

    The processes involved with MMS and other plasma oxygen boosting substances are very significant. Indeed there are many remedies that have been known about for thousands of years that remain in use to those that never need to go and see the pharma sponsored doctors.

    And just to add some veracity to my expressed opinion, I speak from my own experience. For more than twenty five years, I suffered with a gastro-intestinal and digestive ailment. I did as you did, went to the doctors and was told (after exhaustive investigations) that there was nothing they could do and that I should expect to have to take a medicine for the rest of my days. By the time I reached my forties, I was overweight, had tendonitus, rhumatoid artheritus developing in my hands and knees plus of course that digestive and bowel condition.

    Much of what I was suffering with, had much more to do with what I was eating and the lifestyle I was engaged in (driving a desk or a car existing withina high pressure career).

    Then I remembered and put into action not only what I had been taught as a youngster, but researched many aspects of alternative therapies. I am now back at the weight I was when I was 22, as fit as a fiddle, no arthritis, no digestive problems, no tendonitus (despite that I have returned to more physical work).

    Now had I relied upon the indoctrinated practitioners, I suspect that my condition would have remained as it was or even deteriorated further.

    I have a question for you too. Please tell me, have you had all your vaccines? If you have, then perhaps you should go and look through that little red book they gave your mum, and look up the said vaccines and their ingredients. A pound to a pinch of pigeon poop says that your Crohn’s disease is linked to the vaccines and the corrupt foods you have been unwittingly fed.

    There is a silent war being waged, it is the global conspiracy, but ths is not just opinion and conjecture, no it is what has been written by the likes of the UN & WHO.

    Finally one last point in relation to the FDA, you do know that the same entity has approved both GM foods and Bovine Growth hormone within foods. Both of which are poisonous corruptions.

    • noodlemaz December 6, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

      Are you seriously telling me that not one doctor recommended you lose weight and eat healthily?
      Those, plus doing some regular exercise, are the things that all medics will recommend in order to be as fit as you can, extenuating circumstances (like being unfortunate enough to inherit difficult genetic conditions, accidents and so on) aside.

      If by ‘corrupt foods’ you mean fast food rubbish, then yes. People should learn how to eat properly, but the fact that some do not and some parents feed their children irresponsibly does not mean that it’s some big state conspiracy to kill you.

      Any doctor worth his salt should be able to give you simple advice to living healthily; that does not have to involve boycotting medicine (when you actually need it) and spending your life’s savings on overpriced health food shop rubbish making claims they can’t substantiate about how good this berry/seed is at helping you sleep, or whatever.

      Don’t eat too much. Move about as much as you can; don’t sit on your arse all day, do some good exercise. What you do eat, try to make it yourself from fairly basic ingredients. Markets are better than supermarkets.
      But a little of what you like won’t do you any harm; whether that’s a pizza after a night out or some ice cream on a difficult day. Just don’t live in McDonald’s (god I hate that place).

      Natural does NOT necessarily equal good/healthy. Synthetic does not always equal bad.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

        The availability to obtain wholesome natural food that is free of residual biocides is becoming more and more difficult. Yet it is known that trace quantities of these compounds (all too often derived from chemical warfare) will interfere with the gut and endocrine system to say nothing of the adverse impact on neurological system.

        There is something else too. In my own journey back to full and youthful health, I returned to the study of the hunter gatherer diet, this includes many wild foods and herbs. These plants contain a far stronger and wider range of phyto-chemicals (substances not taught to dieticians or medical professionals but known to our ancestors).

        A medicine should DO NO HARM. Now go and find me one. Find one that does not have adverse effects or so called side effects.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:56 pm #

        Not one doctor I have encountered has warned people about the dangers within the food sold. They will talk about diet and exercise but never mention the now proven inherent dangers of consuming corrupted foods.

        I like pizza t will make my own from ingredients I can trust rather than the muck peddled by the various retailers out there. Few people realise just how dangerous these substances are and that applies especially to alcoholic beverages.

        Just this one aspect alone has ensured that a good number of people I have come to know have freed themselves from chronic conditions that the doctors failed to cure.

        And specifically in relation to MMS, I have used it too. It works and the underlying principles are very simple to see.

        I have also used H2O2

        I ferment foods as probiotics, KEFIR, APPLE CIDER VINEGAR, SAURKRAUT. Such things are juxtaposed to the actions of anti-biotics and will counter the effects.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:57 pm #

        Not one doctor I have encountered has warned people about the dangers within the food sold. They will talk about diet and exercise but never mention the now proven inherent dangers of consuming corrupted foods.

        I like pizza t will make my own from ingredients I can trust rather than the muck peddled by the various retailers out there. Few people realise just how dangerous these substances are and that applies especially to alcoholic beverages.

        Just this one aspect alone has ensured that a good number of people I have come to know have freed themselves from chronic conditions that the doctors failed to cure.

      • Judge Judy December 6, 2010 at 11:00 pm #

        Will tell you that almost 6 years ago I was told I have cancer. I am still untreated and doing fine. Not one oncologist told me all the many things I discovered on my own to keep healthy. Food was never mentioned. Not even once.

  139. Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 9:39 pm #

    I have read, albeit briefly through this thread and notice that once again, we have the manifestation of the allopathic pushers versus those of us, more keenly aware of the numerous healing methods many of which surpass modern biocidal concoctions ion both efficacy and more importantly in that they follow the philosophy of Hippocrates.

    Rhys, I would have to say to you, that there are some things in this world, that may appear as one thing, but when properly scrutinised,are shown to be completely opposite.

    To begin with, in your video you express shock at the notion that some of us, prefer to provide our own medical care and should by rights have the freedom to use any substance upon ourselves or our families that we are confident will provide healing. You will also find that we do not “practice medicine” since the very idea that in this day and age, the medical profession seem incapable of curing their patients.

    You also refer to the FDA as though it is some kind of respectable entity and here I would suggest to you that its corridors have long since become infested with former officers of corporations from the pharmacidal manufacturers and some of these (e.g. Donald Rumsfeld former exec. of GD Searle, once in office ensured that the substance known as Aspartame received approval despite it causing over 90 adverse reactions within recipients.

    Few people realise that the plethora of poisonous substances being peddled by modern day medicine all carry adverse reactions, yet before these impositions, the traditional knowledge of plant lore and healing had ensured that populations for more than ten millennia had grown without such impositions.

    Now to be more specific about MMS and most importantly, your own condition. There was a time, in the not too distant past, that the sick, provided they were well enough, would travel great distances to “take the waters”. Now these practices stretch back again, many millennia. Indeed one of the locations that this occurred is now known as Bath, a place of very special interest in this respect. Now what was special about “Aqua Sulis”, so much so that the Romans occupied it and built an entire settlement around it. The answer is the mineral content of the water.

    Now let us move on to the so called qualified medical practitioners and the plethora of toxic allopathic substances peddled. Has it not occurred to you, or those assisting you in the preparation of your scripts, that we are seeing larger and larger numbers of people suffering apparently incurable dis-ease in our times. Epidemics of cancer, diabetes, obesity and any number of neurological disorders are a plague in the modern age. And what pray are the answers proffered by the modern day practices, toxic substances that are designed to alleviate the symptom but almost without exception cause other effects many of which lead to the prescribing of even more substances many of which are known carcinogens, mutagenic compounds and neurological poisons, but above all, THAT DISRUPT THE GASTRO-INTESTINAL SYSTEM!

    Does that ring any bells, the disruption of the gastro-intestinal system. And seriously if you are going to express outrage, then perhaps I should point you to the FDA approved! vaccine Cervarix, which amongst a host of other unpleasant substances, contains ALUMINIUM HYDROXIDE, a known irritant and one that is known to impact the brain!

    The processes involved with MMS and other plasma oxygen boosting substances are very significant. Indeed there are many remedies that have been known about for thousands of years that remain in use to those that never need to go and see the pharma sponsored doctors.

    • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 9:40 pm #

      And just to add some veracity to my expressed opinion, I speak from my own experience. For more than twenty five years, I suffered with a gastro-intestinal and digestive ailment. I did as you did, went to the doctors and was told (after exhaustive investigations) that there was nothing they could do and that I should expect to have to take a medicine for the rest of my days. By the time I reached my forties, I was overweight, had tendonitus, rhumatoid artheritus developing in my hands and knees plus of course that digestive and bowel condition.

      Much of what I was suffering with, had much more to do with what I was eating and the lifestyle I was engaged in (driving a desk or a car existing withina high pressure career).

      Then I remembered and put into action not only what I had been taught as a youngster, but researched many aspects of alternative therapies. I am now back at the weight I was when I was 22, as fit as a fiddle, no arthritis, no digestive problems, no tendonitus (despite that I have returned to more physical work).

      Now had I relied upon the indoctrinated practitioners, I suspect that my condition would have remained as it was or even deteriorated further.

      I have a question for you too. Please tell me, have you had all your vaccines? If you have, then perhaps you should go and look through that little red book they gave your mum, and look up the said vaccines and their ingredients. A pound to a pinch of pigeon poop says that your Crohn’s disease is linked to the vaccines and the corrupt foods you have been unwittingly fed.

      There is a silent war being waged, it is the global conspiracy, but ths is not just opinion and conjecture, no it is what has been written by the likes of the UN & WHO.

      Finally one last point in relation to the FDA, you do know that the same entity has approved both GM foods and Bovine Growth hormone within foods. Both of which are poisonous corruptions.

      • Judge Judy December 6, 2010 at 10:27 pm #

        This is all very interesting Waterwise and I would add that I am quite grateful to live in this age of surgery. Allopathy has made little or no headway with chronic conditions however.

  140. Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 10:33 pm #

    I am not saying that we do not need medically trained people to provide aid after traumatic injury, but the over reliance on surgery now, has led to a situation where the reliance upon natural healing processes has been abandoned.

    Modern medicine seems to view the body as a machine that is faulty by design and so intervenes before fully considering the causative factors involved in dis-ease. There are very few people I have encountered that go under the knife, that do not end up going under again and are prescribed life long synthetic compounds that slowly poison them.

    • Amber K December 6, 2010 at 10:42 pm #

      Waterwise

      “There are very few people I have encountered that go under the knife, that do not end up going under again and are prescribed life long synthetic compounds that slowly poison them.”

      While the vast majority of what you wrote, is not supported by any evidence, this quote is patently ridiculous. How would you know? Do you ask everyone you meet if they’ve had surgery? I have, but you’d never know it because I’m perfectly healthy and require no medications.

      Now if I ever do require medication should I blame it on the surgery I had at the age of twelve? Would that count? Just silly.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:23 pm #

        How do I know. Well because I have just watched as two of my own extended family have been killed. Another is close to death and yet another has a steadily degrading condition.

        One went to his doctor with a back injury, within two years he was dead from cancer. The surgery went wrong, an infection and massive doses of pain killers. Diabetes set in and after months of more medicines, cancer was diagnosed. What my sister went through nursing him, was hell on earth, let alone the torture that he must have experienced.

        Now go down your own street and survey the numbers being prescribed chronic medication. The answer may surprise you.

        I would only add that I am in contact with a vast number of people both here in these islands and across the world. The same story is ever present.

  141. Paul Morgan December 6, 2010 at 10:46 pm #

    @Waterwise,
    It’s pretty clear that you haven’t read this article fully and the comments that have followed from real scientists and real doctors.
    If you wish to make claims for so-called “alternative medicines”, please provide real, verifiable, credible scientific evidence to back up your claims. The problem with these “alternative medicines” an “alternative therapies” is that there is no evidence from properly conducted scientific trials to support their use. Sometimes, there are trials which show them to be of no use or no better than placebo (e.g. homeopathy). Mostly, however, there are simply no trials. One could debate about the reasons for a lack of trials, but the financial one is probably the most feeble excuse put out by “alternative medicine” advocates – this is a multi-million pound business. “Alternative medicine” with evidence to show efficacy is no longer “alternative”.

    You compound your error by then posting nonsense and rubbish about vaccinations and aspartame. It would seem from your post that you are prepared to believe all the ludicrous conspiracy theories that abound on the Internet and are gullible enough to fall prey to all the scammers and quacks who feed on the chronically sick, vulnerable and desperate.
    I suggest you look at http://www.quackwatch.org so that you might open your mind to the scams and quackery that have no benefits, expose their victims to harm (directly or indirectly), and just serve to exploit people.

    • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:14 pm #

      This is a message for Paul

      Tell us now, did you give or have some one give your own son the vaccines?
      This may well be related to his condition and the drugs prescribed for Crohn’s disease will ensure his premature death.

      Real doctors used to swear the hippocratic oath, did you?

      Physician heal thyself. Reliance upon a corrupted peer review process that is owned and controlled by vested interests, is nothing as evidence when it comes to my own health and living experience.

      The term quack, do you know where it is derived. It comes from the description of those that can do no more than parrot the junk pumped into their heads.

      I have 30 years of professional work with living systems and have already established a legacy that will remain for hundreds of years. I work with nature not against it as you have been taught to do. And when I do, I am rewarded and this is becasue I work in symbiosis with living rather than attempting to modify what creation has wrought.

      Nonsense about Aspartame! Now go and show me what the components break down to within the body. I have helped at least a dozen people from removing themelves from its addiction. Each and every one of them was suffering with sever headaches and visual impairment.

      “ludicrous conspiracy theories”
      If you deny what is happening to our people right now and that in all respects it has been achieved by design, then you are worse than a charlatan.
      If your boy is ill, your own indoctrinated condition may well be responsible.

      In other words “you are culpable”.

      The evidence to this will be found when you go and look at the ingredients injected into him when he was an infant.

      Your quackwatch.org is known to me, it is infested with idiots that actually believe the utter rubbish that spews forth from the medical mainstream.

  142. Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:17 pm #

    I am listening right now to a lady that suffered from Crohn’s. Through the use of natural therapies, she has cured herself, just as I have done.

    I don’t know about you dear reader, but for me that speaks more than a million pages of corporate sponsored scribblings.

    This poor lad Rhys may well have a father that will deny the truth as to what has caused his condition. Like that other maniac Jennens (inventor of small pox vaccine) he may end up killing his own son.

    • Amber K December 6, 2010 at 11:20 pm #

      Waterwise, I’d already surmised you’re a nutjob but now I see that you’re a completely horrible human being as well. I hope you’re banned from this site for making such a nasty accusation. Shame on you.

      • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

        Those around me, my family and very extensive circle of friends know me as some one that is both kind and compassionate but very intolerant of fools and those that serve the genocidal agenda that is a curse to all people.

        If you have nothing other than insult to hurl, then you should know its as water off a ducks back and demonstrates that you have nothing in terms of substance to offer.

        I came here in defence of al people that use their own methods to heal and sustain health. It is what I do and I speak for all those that may become victims of a system that is censoring and preventing people from being able to look after themselves.

        Do you seriously believe it is a good thing to inject infants with formaldehyde, mercury and recombinant DNA proteins?

        Such things are weapons designed to reduce the vitality of our young and this is EXACTLY what we see occurring.

      • Rhys Morgan December 7, 2010 at 12:10 am #

        First, believe it or not, thimerosal doesn’t contain elemental mercury. It contains ethylmercury which passes out of the body in a couple of weeks.
        It’s a very good preservative for vaccines.
        Second, you’re against recombinant DNA? WTH man?
        I can sort-of understand your hate for what you appear to think was elemental mercury in vaccines, but recombinant DNA? That’s a new hate on me, and an even more illogical one at that.
        Next, this whole “genocidal agenda”? You’ve lost it. You really have. But of course, because you’re so deluded you will refuse to get the psychiatric help that you need lest they “pump you full of poisons” and the like.
        You had an anecdote about your kid starting to show signs of Aspergers and you’d like to blame it on the vaccines. OK, anecdotes aren’t evidence for one, but since that it what people like you deal with, I see your anecdote and raise it – what about all the millions and millions of kids who have been vaccinated with vaccines containing thimerosal and didn’t get autism?
        Finally, I’d like to point out that my Crohn’s is in remission. I can finally grow, finally start living again. No, not thanks to some mystical herb from a land far, far away. From a biologic called infliximab.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 1:18 am #

        Ethyl mercury! For those that do not know, this is mercury combined into alcohol, you know the substance that when you drink it gives you a head ache!

        Oh but thats okay, these little babies that cry all night afterwards will never be able to tell and the parents stories will be disregarded as anecdotal!

        It is indeed claimed by the less well informed, that the mercury leaves the body within a couple of days.

        Now I wonder why the body seeks to purge it as quickly as possible! Is it perchance because it is recognised as an undesirable insult to the phisiology.

        I also wonder exactly what damage might occur whilst it is still resident IN THE BRAIN and other fatty tissue. Now go take a careful look at vaccinated children, especially those that have been subjected to the vaccines containing such a pernicious poison. You will readily observe that they have suffered cerebral ischemia (akin to a mild stroke) with the result that one side of their face becomes lop sided.

        Before I knew what I do now, one of my own youngest was poisoned in this manner and has manifest the exact same thing. Such a thing will enrage all fathers once known and it was this that has led me to scrutinise the malpractices that calls itself medicine.

    • Rhys Morgan December 6, 2010 at 11:51 pm #

      No no David, oops, I mean Waterwise.
      Even if my father had not got me vaccinated, I would have chosen to be vaccinated myself, because I’m not some conspiracy theory loon who’d rather believe that a lack of scientific papers is evidence than actually existent scientific papers being evidence.
      Next, onto your spurious claims.
      1) That the vaccination caused my Crohn’s.
      – Got any evidence for that? No? Then STFU.
      2) That the medication for my Crohn’s is killing me.
      – Got any evidence for that? No? Then STFU.
      3) That my dad is ‘denying me the truth’ of my Crohn’s?
      – Got any evidence for that? No? Then STFU.
      4. That natural remedies will cure my Crohn’s.
      – Got any evidence for that? No? Then STFU.
      Finally, I’d like to make the point that one anecdote in which a woman says she is cured of Crohn’s is speaks more than a million research papers, not all of them, may I add, sponsored by pharmaceutical companies?
      I think that just highlights your delusions.

      • Amber K December 7, 2010 at 12:14 am #

        Rhys, as anecdotes are clearly evidence to Waterwise, I will refute his argument that vaccine’s caused your Crohn’s disease.

        My son is fully vaccinated and does not have Crohn’s disease, autism, juvenile onset diabetes, rabies or any other condition. I have met Waterwise’s burden of proof that vaccines do not cause any of these conditions.

        My son has also never contracted pertussis, tetanus, Hep B, chicken pox, measles, mumps or rubella and has never had the flu. I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 12:16 am #

        A little late for you to be up isn’t it Rhys?!! (Hmmm Paul you should let the boy speak for himself!)

        As for evidence for the vaccines given to you being causally linked to your gastro-intestinal disorder, take a careful look through the ingredients in each of them. All the evidence necessary is to be found there.

        Now go to the electronic medical compendium and read through the pharmacology, the ingredients, excipients and side effects of the medicines they have put you on.

        Finally, I would suggest you read a little more about that healer and philosopher called Hippocrates, he has left us a great legacy of means of curing, especially through the use of plants. Especially young plants, sprouted seeds. Such things are powerful and cannot do you any harm… let me repeat ANY HARM

        Paul you seem to have been left without the capacity to question the dogmas, or alternatively, you should be regarded as nothing more than a shill to the poisoners that profit from the sickening

        Finally, the highest form of evidence within a court of law, is the evidence given by the witnesses to events. As such this so called anecdotal evidence is far more relevant than you would have other believe. The concerned parents that watch their children become ill after receiving vaccines, really are the very best witnesses and I would listen to them first (as all doctors should).

        But you, instead seem to prefer to belief the scribblings of dubious publications, publications controlled and subjected to censor.

        What ever happened to your capacity to think!

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 1:28 am #

        Amber K
        There are many children that do not manifest problems for a very long time, even throughout childhood. But given that we know that mutagenic compounds are included, along with viruses known to cause leukaemia and a host of other dis-eases, I doubt very much that your son will have escaped.

        Once the ingredients and methods of production are known, most sensible people can see exactly why people such as me come to denounce a practice that is fundamentally flawed.

        There is absolutely no evidence that ANY of these vaccines have prevented illnesses and every indication that they are the cause of many. (go research the so called Spanish Flu).

        It is curious that according to most sources, Crohn’s disease cannot be cured and even according to Paul (aka) Rhys will only go into remission. Yet when people bring non harmful and more importantly readily available inexpensive remedies, they are attacked. Now why might that be. Is there something occurring hre that seeks to support the prevention of freedom of choice. And if so, what force is it.

        As I have stated, I have used MMS and it is benign. The principle of saturating body plasma with free oxygen is known to assist in destroying anaerobic sites where pathogens of numerous forms will be eliminated.

        Such a method is far better than injection moulds (anti-biotics) that destroy gut flora.

  143. Paul Morgan December 6, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    Waterwise,
    You really are deluded!
    You spout absolute bollocks about subjects you know nothing about. A typical alt-med, anti-vax, conspiracy theory fool.
    Andrew Wakefield was struck off because he was caught out for committing fraudulent and unethical research.
    As Abraham Lincoln said “It is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”.
    As for your comments regarding my son’s health, I can only say that you are a disgrace to the human race. Take a good, long, hard look at yourself. I really don’t know how you can live with yourself. If there is a way of banning you from this blog, I would advise my son to do so, along with others who express similar views. The views that you and others express are sickening and disgusting and the hate and vitriol you express only bears comparison to the treatment of ethnic minorities by Nazi Germany. I only hope that you have a treatable psychiatric illness, rather than being psychopaths. Now I suggest you go and sit in a darkened room and don your tin-foil hat.

    • Waterwise December 6, 2010 at 11:50 pm #

      Andrew Wakefield was struck off for denouncing the MMR vaccine. A concoction containing mercury. HIs research was not fraudulent and he was struck off on the basis of concocted allegations.

      The same treatment was handed out to Arphad Putsii, a scientist of forty years experience who disclosed the truth as to the dangers of genetically modified potatoes.

      I am a father of seven. Two of them were not with me during their early years and were subjected to these perniciously evil impositions and one of them now verges on Aspergers.

      The remainder of my children are full of vitality and health. It is those that have allowed themselves to become blinded to the insainties prel;evant in modern medical interventions that are a disgrace.

      Now lets see if you can answer that question. DId you get your son vaccinated?
      You had better answer this time, anything else will reveal much more about you.

      And incidentally I do not hate you, I am simply disgusted at what has been done to those that seek to serve others. It is you that has sought to attack others that choose to use their own means of maintaining health. So what I have posted here, you should regard as nothing more or less than you deserve.

      It is also the strategy of a charlatan to hurl insult and abuse.

      As for your comment relating to the events of NAZI germany, may I remind you to go and look up the corporate entities that Bayer, Baxters International and other evolved from.

      What these pharmacide manufacturers do to the animals they test, they also do to human beings and I have all the proof of that needed to establish it as fact.

      Lastly you infer psychiatry, the invented science of the likes of the supremacist Frued, a discipline that never cures and pumps its victims with poisons. Dosing little children with Ritalin because they have an imbalance of brian chemistry! Utterly amazing, Beethoven would never have left us his gifts had such things happened in his time.

      What should happen now, is that you should revisit the so called side effects and substance of the medicines being given to your boy.

      • Chunkylimey December 7, 2010 at 12:01 am #

        “who disclosed the truth as to the dangers of genetically modified potatoes.”

        What that when we bake them really hard you’ll still appear to be a more dense vegetable?

      • Chunkylimey December 7, 2010 at 12:04 am #

        “invented science”

        As opposed to what other kind of science?

        The one that your imaginary friend “God” gave to you?

        I’d be laughing at your idiocy more if I wasn’t concerned someone like you was at large in public and a threat to the rest of the species.

        Please for goodness sake don’t breed. I mean normally your personality would drive people away; but even if your tempted by some poor mentally handicapped victim don’t do it. Your own misery is clearly bad enough; don’t force it on anyone else.

      • MikeHypercube December 7, 2010 at 12:21 am #

        Waterwise, will you stop posting the same tedious list of grievances over and over and over a-friggin-gain! You’re blocking up my mail box with tosh and I wouldn’t mind if it was just the same tosh once, not over and over in slightly different words.

        We get it. The world is full of bad people you don’t understand, doing bad things. As a result it is safer to ignore everything that is said by people who have a better education than you because they are all in on the plot, and it’s better to just believe whatever anyone says who comes along and who tells you that they are not in on that plot.

        Of course there is a grain of truth in some of the bad things you say happen out there in the big wild world. We know. Does that make it a good idea to swallow any old tosh just because that’s easier than belatedly educating yourself in the basic facts of science that your schooling seems to have omitted? That’s your call really, but don’t bother flooding the rest of us with messages about stuff we’ve heard before, from each and every person who has given up on this mythical “establishment” and bought into the efficacy of the scientifically random. It’s point for point the same as the last message and the hundred before that from people in your predicament. Get an education, you’ll be amazed. You will discover that the world is not full of some faceless bunch of “them” who are out to bamboozle you. There are bad things that happen in medicine, but unlike the bad things that quacks get up to, these come out into the open in the end. That’s why you know about them. With a bit of reading, you’ll even be able to read the research for yourself (it’s not limited to some secretive priesthood; knowledge is free to the curious). The first clue this is happening is when you are able to critique individual cases where things have been done wrong, and not flood everyone’s mailbox with this word salad of all the same stuff that so many others have already flooded us with. Good luck!

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 1:06 am #

        Chunkeylimey, is that supposed to be a serious question, or are you absent of the capacity to actually debate.

        I wonder what you and others know about bacillus thunbergerinsii and its known impact upon the gut and endocrine system.

        To be honest you should be more concerned about the things that cause you to express such sentiments. I have encountered a great number of entities like you, they are always a little short on intellectual capacity and seem to be tormented into hurling insult. What ever happened to you to cause such a thing I wonder.

    • Ania December 7, 2010 at 12:15 am #

      @Paul .. I have a nephew who was damaged in his gut by the first (and only set of) childhood vaccines he had … so I have seen at first hand how the insistence of the Dad to have the vaccines CAUSED the serious intestinal health problems that he has suffered with. How do we know? Because of stool tests that were done in the USA as the UK didn’t have the facilities, and which confirmed the ingredients of these vaccines, found resident in his gut. There is your “scientific proof” that you insist on. And this was after the NHS has exhausted ALL possible avenues that they could offer to treat his condition and never offered to do these stool tests. Thus the Dad who INSISTED on his Son having the vaccine has to LIVE WITH the knowledge that on HIS insistence (as he didn’t know any better although others of us did), he massively exacerbated his son’s intestinal health problems. Thank goodness today he knows betterr not to inflict vaccines and the damage they cause on their new baby.
      How do I know? I have had to live with this “health saga” in my own close family for over 7.5 yrs. And fortunately, after having spent thousands of pounds on seeing a highly trained and respected nutritional therapist who has prescribed vitamins, minerals, homeopathy, phyto-biophysics, as well as a complete change of diet cutting out gluten and cows dairy etc, his health is now almost 100%. The NHS told us that he could die from the condition it was so bad at one stage. And yet they had nothing they could do for him. Who gave up on who? They were never able to answer the questions that were asked of them as to the why’s, how’s etc of how to cure it or treat it – without resorting to surgery, invasive tests on a small baby and toxic medicines.
      So I KNOW what I am talking about when I, my family and friends look into and adopt “alternative” ways of treating disease and ailments. Our own ACTUAL experience counts for a LOT more than any peer reviewed scientific papers ever will – as I have seen it with my own eyes and had to live with it in my own family.
      The NHS had NOTHING to offer then and now. Which is why we know WE are on the right track, end of. I just wish others could open their minds and realise that the answers to all our health problems are out there already – and they’re not controlled by Big Pharma or by the NHS, yet. There is no incurable disease; to say otherwise is a travesty.

  144. Paul Morgan December 6, 2010 at 11:32 pm #

    Waterwise,
    Where is any of the evidence I have posted, in any way, inaccurate or misleading? If you have real, verifiable, credible evidence to that effect, please post it here. Put up or shut up.

    • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 12:29 am #

      The inaccuracies are in your overtly compliant subservience to the ridiculous per review process and the continued deployment of poisonous interventions and concoctions.

      Those that come here to assist in providing remedy, especially to young sufferers of gastro-intestinal disorders, didn’t come here to fight with you, but to draw your attention to the distortions that are overwhelming the healing sciences.

      As for evidence, I am the living breathing evidence along with all those I have shown. Our numbers are growing Pul and there is nothing that you, the FDA, WHO or any of the plethora of elitist puppets that now advocate population reduction.

      So your evidence is based upon an empirical system that is centrally controlled where as my own and others here, is based upon our life experiences. So the question is, do you put your life into the trust of a book published by unknown powers, or the living that are the very cause for your own existence.

      And where pray would you expect to find a peer reviewed paper that exposes the corruption of the pharmaceutical corporations and their collusion with the WHO (as exposed earlier this year over the swine flu bioweapon).

      You should go and listen to Huxley, Orwell and Wells.

      • MikeTheInfidel December 7, 2010 at 12:34 am #

        The point of a system being empirical is that it *cannot* be centrally controlled. The evidence is available to everyone.

        If you think that no skeptics are attacking the WHO, FDA, or pharma companies for their misdeeds, you are *delusional*.

      • Mick December 7, 2010 at 12:45 am #

        Waterwise

        Do you mind if I use your previous couple of comments for a lecture I’m preparing on conspiracy theorists ? I find my students don’t believe that ppl will publish comments like these, and you clearly are sincere in your beliefs that there is a New World Order trying to implement population reduction. If you do not wish me to quote you please advise..

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 12:49 am #

        And this response is to the entity MikeHypercube.

        Please forgive me for any congestion on your email box.

        Perhaps this though is only occurring because I will always reserve the right to defend peoples capacity to look after themselves. And so when I see a contrived attack on those same people, I will stand at their vanguard and denounce what I se as a sickness that now impacts upon literally billions of people.

        I do not regard the killing or maiming of infants a tedious matter! And perhaps rather than label the words I put down here as tosh, perhaps you should place real substance instead. Such a tactic is both slovenly and dishonourable.

        My education is perhaps not what you think, I have my bits of paper too you know, along with a repertoire of living projects that serve as all the evidence I need to substantiate my capacities in terms of both mechanical and the living sciences.

        This thread, is just one more of the locations where the truth as to what is being done to us, is all too obvious and none can now refute what is intended.

        As for my intellectual capacities, well since all you have brought forth is derogatory rhetoric in the face of known abuse by medical doctrines one has to ask, what on this earth is your intent. MMS is safe and efficacious, just as any number of other remedies promoted and used outside the pharmacidal depopulation agenda.

        And finally, the bad things come out AFTER innocent victims are sacrificed and I say NO MORE. Such contrivances demand an immediate and strong challenge. I have born witness to too many injured children to even contemplate remaining silent about such things.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 12:53 am #

        MikeTheInfidel The problem is that the present day empirical system is centrally guided through research granting and further subverted by the selection for peer review process.

        The reason for drawing attention to the illegitimacy of the FDA is that it is clearly not what it claims to be and I am gladdened to learn what you state about skeptics. After all I am a skeptic too, all good science is based upon the same.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 1:01 am #

        Mick
        Rather than present a lecture about conspiracy theorists, I would be happy to actually attend your lecture or any public debate on these issues. You will need to allocate a few hours because the evidence we can present is overwhelming.

        Those that label individuals like me as conspiracy theorists invariably negate to make mention of our capacity to forecast and expose the extents of corruption prevailing now or the harm being done. So do not quote me, allow me to actually attend and present just one aspect of the perversions occurring now.

        More importantly, such a label (esp. when used in a derogatory way) seeks not to provide a path for the betterment of this place and the times we live through. No instead it is designed to attempt to reduce our capacity to continue to dismantle the illusions controlling so much of humanity. It will not succeed of course.

      • Mick December 7, 2010 at 11:04 am #

        Waterwise

        The lecture will be in Australia, and as far as I know will only be available online to enrolled students at the university. I do not intend to be sucked into name-calling as you have done quite enough of that already, and any reader of these comments can decide for themself whether you protesteth too much. I am very aware of the ‘overwhelming’ evidence for a number of health ‘conspiracies’, but it’s just that I find them an intriguing sociocultural phenomenon rather than convincing in and of themselves.

      • Waterwise December 7, 2010 at 11:50 am #

        Mick

        What you seem to be engaged in, is something we have seen elsewhere. If you are going to educate or disseminate information then to attempt to discredit the vast numbers that recognise the activities of the like of the Rockerfeller Foundation.

        I doubt that your students will gain the benefit of the well documented research done by so many. I doubt that they will hear of the brave work of people like Eustace Mullins or so many others.

        When the medical fraternities come to acknowledge that they have been subverted by the indoctrination to upside down medical procedures, then and only then will the virtuous intent of the people seeking to become practitioners.

        We even have Strategic Health Authorities bribing young people into taking vaccines and senior health officials beginning to insist that all children must be vaccinated before they can attend school. THis based upon the rather odd idea of herd immunity and notion that in itself infers that the vaccines do not work.

        I think if you read through the comments I have made, you will find no name calling. It is something that is all too readily observable in the posts of those advocating these insidious impositions.

        If you and others cannot see that the numbers of toxic substances included within these medicines, food and water are causing more disease, then you will do no more than continue to serve an agenda that is intent on genocide through soft biological and chemical weapons.

        If the rising of people to seek o look after themselves without subscribing to present day medical practices is evidence of anything, it is that growing numbers of the general public are waking up and increasing seeking out alternative means of providing themselves with health care based upon much older insights that do not cause harm.

        Look around, you will see the increasing prolific use of chemical interventions being forced onto people both young and old. Consent is often obtained without full disclosure and as such is fraudulent. The underlying intention is not to improve health, on the contrary the results as to the condition of people, the explosion in allergies and life time drugging is all the evidence required.

        So I have to ask you, at what point will those like you acknowledge the evidence of harm being done. These things have already impacted on my own extended family to their detriment and even my own doctor agrees in private. He also acknowledges that if he were to speak out, then he would be putting his career at risk.

        Likewise, a friend that is a practising dentist has now realised that the doctrines of the Royal College of Surgeons and the way in which they will act upon other dentists if they do not toe the line is also very significant. I mentioned fluorine compounds earlier in these threads, add in the use of mercury (now banned in other countries) as the evidence of the insult it releases mounts.

        This boy Rhys, has been diagnosed with a condition that historically we only saw in the elderly and infirm. Such things are not accidental

  145. Judge Judy December 7, 2010 at 1:53 pm #

    You may want to consider that rather than this “I’m right. You are wrong.” bickering, some very wise people using Integral Theory a la Ken Wilber are working not only medicine out but law, business, etc. Yes, there is a developing discipline named “Integral Medicine,” not to be confused with “Alternative Medicine” or “Integrative Medicine” based upon, as I mentioned, Integral Theory and the work of Ken Wilber and others.

  146. Paul Morgan December 7, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    Waterwise,
    It would seem that you wouldn’t recognise scientific evidence if it slapped you in the face! You comment that charlatans hurl abuse – clearly you are incapable of seeing the irony in your statement, given what you posted about Rhys and myself. I will not debate the subject of Rhys’s health with a fool such as you. Rhys has already answered your questions.
    You are totally clueless with your statements on healthcare matters, with about as much credibility as saying the earth is flat. Before opening your mouth again, try to engage your brain (I realise this may be difficult for you).
    Andrew Wakefield was struck off for committing research fraud and for conducting unethical research. Here is the transcript of the GMC investigation:-
    http://www.gmc-uk.org/static/documents/content/Wakefield__Smith_Murch.pdf
    Perhaps, however, you think that only “Big Pharma” are capable of research fraud? Are you incapable of believing that others could be guilty of similar crimes? As Puztai is not a doctor, his case is totally different.
    I suggest you take the advice of those who have responded to your vitriolic outpouring of hate by stop posting about subjects that you clearly have no idea about.
    I have taken the Hippocratic Oath and abide by its principles. I have nothing to feel guilty about.
    You state that you have “30 years of professional work with living systems” – perhaps you could explain what this work is and what your qualifications are?
    As for being a compassionate person, that is extremely difficult to believe given your posts which are full of sickening hate.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 10:03 am #

      Paul, Yet again you seek to open your comments with derision
      “It would seem that you wouldn’t recognise scientific evidence if it slapped you in the face!”

      If that were the case, then I would have failed to achieve what I have. But what is denied or ignored within your comments, is that the sciences of today in many areas have become both distorted and corrupt through the control of its publications.

      The litany of disastrous results from the vaccination programmes dating back to their origins and go hand in hand with what can only be described as a silent war on humanity, or at least certain races and cultures within it.

      The GMC have lost all integrity in respect of the way they have colluded in the attack on Dr Andrew Wakefield and others. More significantly, I can find not other doctors or medical professions that have been given access to the media, that have spoken out publicly against these venomous procedures. Now given that the basic ingredients included are substances that even ley people understand to be undesirable and that the entire system promoting them has been shown to be deeply corrupted, it beggars belief that no one speaks out for the victims.

      I have looked at Dr Wakefield’s work and he along with others have not only demonstrated a strong link between gastro-intestinal problems and both neurological and endocrine system disorders.

      I would also point out to readers that the reporting of adverse reactions for other vaccines has been subverted and this too appears in all respects to come from a centralised system that distorts the truth and applies censorship. If you want proof of this, I will be happy to oblige. Indeed it has reached the point where the evidence for inflicted harm should by rights have led to the perpetrators being subjected to criminal prosecution under common law as well as the laws of tort.

      Since readers only need to examine the declared reactions to be expected from vaccines, it is obvious that harm is being both inflicted and admitted, thus those like you that have sworn the hippocratic oath have broken it.

      Finally, my posts contain no hatred, simply the observations of some one that acknowledges that in these times, we are witnessing many millions if not billions of people being harmed and worse by cabals of centralised powers. It is my own compassion for the victims of genocidal wars, of the kidnap and torture of so called “suspects”, the never ending litany of medical professionals that have become so brainwashed into the given procedures as to be blind to what resides behind the scenes.

      Throughout history, this system has murdered those that have spoken out and sought to thwart the agenda and this demonic game continues.

      The people who recognise the dangers embedded within pharmacidal medicine should have the right to choose alternatives, but this thread appears in all respects to be part of a campaign to destroy those things.

      If Rhys’s problems do stem from the vaccines, a point which given the known toxicity of their ingredients is quite likely, then what does it say for the training given to the millions of medically trained practitioners.

      After all, how else could he and the millions of other sufferers with this and similar ailments have come about. Such things occur because of insults to the living system and their incidence can be plotted against a number of potential sources. But the overwhelmingly obvious aspect of this, is that through vaccines, substances are injected to the body, by passing natural defences.

      The hatred you would so much love to ascribe to my postings, has its source, but not from me. Instead the evidence of where it comes from can be traced to many of the problems facing our world and its people.

  147. Paul Morgan December 7, 2010 at 8:49 pm #

    Ania,
    Your previous postings have shown you to be deluded and your latest contribution does nothing to contradict this. You should know if you do proper scientific research that there is no evidence to show a link between vaccinations and gut damage or autism.
    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/anti-vaccination_movement/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autistic_enterocolitis

    I would suspect that the stool test for vaccine remnants is another example of quackery, like hair analysis:-
    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/hair.html
    http://www.quackwatch.org/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=vaccine

    • Ania December 7, 2010 at 10:48 pm #

      Paul, it’s obvious that it’s hard to really understand and accept what I wrote above as fact in terms of my nephew and inferred that it’s some more delusion on my part; I realise this may be so difficult as it flies right in the face of everything that doctors et al are trained for. THE NHS including doctors and such highly trained consultants – FAILED HIM, and that is a fact.
      If not for the choice of non NHS treatments he may well have died. The NHS can’t and didn’t treat him as they could do nothing.
      - Tell me how could he have been healed if the NHS didn’t treat him? What is it that has worked?
      He is healed by using non pharmacides which is proof enough of what works and what doesn’t; this doesn’t need peer reviewed scientific studies to show it works as my nephew is alive and very healthy. I’m at a loss to see how this sort of actual living proof shows that I’m deluded.
      - Explain to me why has this healing been possible? And all without using the pharmacological poisons that doctors get incentivised to peddle on their unwitting and uninformed guinea pigs, sorry, patients?
      No-one has ever and is ever able to answer these simple questions – because there is no answer but one which flies in the face of what modern medicine stands for. Non allopathic treatment regimes as per what my nephew underwent/undergoes and many other people that I know, actually DO work and without any dangerous side effects – and for those in the mainstream medical profession, it’s such a hard pill to swallow.

      • Judge Judy December 7, 2010 at 10:50 pm #

        Healing is not understood Ania and those who tell you otherwise are deluded.

      • Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 8:04 am #

        Ania – tell us what “stool testing” was done! I can’t find anything on the Internet about it. This would pull in all available published information. Not even the quack websites such as Natural News or Curezone mention anything. Searching for this on anti-vaccination websites through Google comes up with nothing!
        Speaking plainly, you have “proved” nothing by posting your anecdotes. If you have been reading the posts on this blog and reading up about evidence-based medicine, you should realise that anecdotes are not evidence.
        You are talking nonsense. However, given your previous posts and these recent posts, I’m not surprised at your continued state of delusion.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 10:12 am #

      This sir is an outright lie. Let us examine the words of Professor Kent Woods, Chief Executive of the MHRA, who instructs those administering the Cervarix vaccine to report adverse reactions as “psychogenic” in other words imagined.

      To emphasise the vileness of this assertion one only needs to research the contents of this particular vaccine and the so called clinical trials (human experiments) where the constituent ingredients were derived.

      I do not have tie right now, but will post the range of symptoms designated as psychogenic later, they are in all respects, further evidence of the evil being deployed and agin this is further evidenced by another member of my extended family.

  148. Paul Morgan December 7, 2010 at 9:00 pm #

    bacillus thunbergerinsii?
    What sort of tosh is this? There are NO references on PubMed that refer to this.
    Even worse is that aren’t even any references to it on a Google search:-
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=bacillus+thunbergerinsii
    Can we stick to real facts and science rather than spouting bollocks?

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 10:57 am #

      Apologies, working entirely from memory sometimes leads to the odd typo. The correct term relates to the insecticide derived from soil born insect pathogen Bacillus thuringiensis. A substance originally isolated and used even for organic crops but later banned due to hypersensitivity issues but now included at far greater concentrations within the BT GM crops.

      It was claimed originally that BT was not endotoxic to mamals and humans, but this later proved to another false claim just like the idea that Roundup degrades in the soil.

      This is your science based agenda. A system where known poisons are inserted into all by distorting the truth.

      Now let us boil this down to basics. Do you deny that depopulation or population control is a real phenomena? Or are you going to attempt to cast off such a well evidenced aspect of this.

      It can also be stated, that we have all been subjected to social engineering and so the next question has to be (although it might be some what disturbing for those indoctrinated into certain professional practices), who and how many have been brainwashed into thinking that up is down. More simply put, is mercury a poison?

      People are not following any single individual in this, they will, when presented with conflicting versions of reality, search out for those things that make sense and fit the events unfolding.

      It cannot be denied that our world is going through tremendous changes and many people are suffering, not just in these islands, but across the entire globe. This on its own indicates that there is indeed a global agenda and the numbers of people suffering underlines that the intentions of those attempting to controlling all aspects of our society do not mean well.

      For a young boy to even be diagnosed with Crohn’s disease is significant in itself, such a thing should not afflict the young. Therefore it must be concluded that something has happened to him, something that has disrupted his physiology in such a way as to leave him dependent on medication.

      Who gains from this?

      • Justin Satov December 8, 2010 at 4:07 pm #

        @Waterwise
        While I do agree that GM foods are unfortunate, I also recognize that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to survive off of naturally grown things. Agriculture is not natural, but we need it to feed communities. GM foods are not natural, but it allows us to produce in vastly greater quantities.
        Sure, it’s less nutritious and not quite as healthy as if you took things from your own garden, but it’s what makes it possible to support the population that we’ve managed to amass. Even then it isn’t enough!

        However, all of this does not equal a major conspiracy, nor is it evil. While I will also agree with you that the government has its share of corrupt politicians and their personal agendas, I doubt they’re out to get you. They’re in it for the money, yes, and maybe a blurb in a history textbook, but they’re not trying to kill the populace. The world couldn’t work if “the system” was comprised of honest folk. Everything would fall apart.

        Of course, I realise there is NO point in telling you all of this, because as soon as anyone provides you an argument to the contrary of your own personal beliefs, you’ll scream “conspiracy” and plug your ears. Jim Humble, you, and the rest of his followers are all just conspiracy theorists who can’t take the time to do proper research if you think it might disprove your theory.

        But when you get right down to it, all of this is irrelevant. Humans have been fucking each other over since we learned how to kill things (so, you know, before we were humans). Why would we stop now? Because after 36,000+ years of being dicks, we suddenly had a collective change of heart? Or because YOU think certain people are trying to conspire against the masses, and they HAVE to listen to someone as educated as yourself? Please. Get over yourself, and try to enjoy life, would you?

        Also stop clogging up my inbox with your asinine and frankly wildly unrelated arguments. This discussion is about MMS; not the FDA, not GM foods, not Vaccines, and not paranoia. Wanna talk about that stuff, start your own blog and do it there. Feel free to discuss MMS or even Homeopathy here, but keep it limited to that as best you can.

  149. mms is a scam December 8, 2010 at 12:40 am #

    My palm is getting sore from my face repeatedly dropping into it.

    I guess all these posts really demonstrate why Jim Humble has so many followers because people seem to believe in all sorts of voodoo and pseudoscience. Coincidence doesn’t mean causation.

    Keep up the good work Rhys and Paul.

    To a few others, you are supposed to wear your socks on your feet not your hands.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 5:54 pm #

      Consider this, I am not a follower of any one. But I like others will question the so called wisdoms of an establishment that is doing such a disgusting job of looking after our people and will stand in the fullest defiance of any attempts to remove the freedoms of people to look after themselves.

      The swine flu vaccine was a scam, now exposed and before anyone should be given such disgusting things, it should by rights be on the basis that those administering them should sign an acceptance of liability under Tort.

  150. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 8:06 am #

    Judge Judy
    Doctors, nurses and other health professionals heal people all the time – that’s what we do for a living! Your comment is meaningless and pointless.

    • Judge Judy December 8, 2010 at 4:25 pm #

      No, it is the body that heals and to think you understand those processes makes you as delusion as those you accuse of delusion.

      • Ania December 8, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

        Exactly! Glad to see that someone on here understands this, apart from Waterwise. It is the “alternative” or “complementary” therapies that specifically promote and support the body to heal through the use of non-toxic remedies (be it herbs or otherwise) that helps to facilitate this, NOT the medical profession peddling toxic pharmacides! Toxins of the sort prescribed by the millions daily, pollute not just the ailing patients with poison, but also the planet. There is enough “scientific evidence” available showing what is happening to e.g. the water supply and the levels of chemicals and toxins being found therein as a direct result of people ingesting ever increasing pharmacides.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 5:50 pm #

      “Doctors, nurses and other health professionals heal people all the time”

      I wish that were true, I truly do. But another case recently was brought to my attention that underlines the peddling of toxic substances. A young man who had not been obtaining an adequate diet, became infected with a throat absess, a quinzey I believe is the term. He went to his doctor who prescribed an anti-biotic. But not only did the anti-biotic (anti life) not work, but he suffered an allergic reaction to it. His condition deteriorated and he was admitted to hospital where he was advised that the first anti-biotic was the wrong one and was given another (that rather oddly turned out to be the exact same drug). But thanks to loving friends, he was removed from hospital and treated with alternative therapy where upon within 24 hours he was healed. It should also be noted that when he was collected from said hospital he was carrying perhaps a hundred pounds worth of other pharmaceutical substances, some of which were for entirely different ailments.

      Now which points exactly that I have raised are meaningless and pointless?

  151. noodlemaz December 8, 2010 at 11:27 am #

    You Wakefield-apologists might want to check out the fact that he was PAID by a law firm to go out and discredit MMR, so that single vaccines could be rolled out.
    Wakefield was never a health activist; he performed invasive, traumatising procedures on kids for no reason other than the large amounts of money going into his bank account.

    http://noodlemaz.wordpress.com/2010/05/11/research-fraud-for-dummies/

    He is worse than all the people on this blog YOU criticise for being in the pockets of Big Pharma or whatever; he really was. He was struck off for good reason, not because ‘the establishment’ thought he was too brilliant to leave loose.

    Please read all of that and don’t cherry-pick it; there are anecdotes available from the parents of the kids in his ‘trials’, who deny a lot of what he said outright, and the manipulation of his data is profound.

    There’s a reason all the other authors pulled their names from his study; that barely ever happens and when it does, it’s for good reason.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 5:42 pm #

      This accusation I have heard before, it is the all too typical smearing applied to any that denounce these impositions. Your next comment is utterly laughable since you seek to attribute his activities to the grabbing of money. I wonder whether you know how much money has been handed over to the pharmaceutical corporations! Or how much is handed back by them in the form of special trips to seminars in far off places that too many medical professionals have attended.

      Dr Wakefield’s response which is available to anyone wanting to find out more as to this particular situation or the research not only done by him, but since verified by others.

      And those parents, well, shall we say that whenever we see peple change their stories in such a dramatic manner, it should give us cause to question what influences might have been applied. The exact same scenario is repeated time and time again especially over the issue of vaccines.

      The reasons for the overwhelming absence of so many medical practitioners standing up against these poisonous impositions is very clear to any researcher and applies to many areas of science.

      The establishment entities today exist outside of the possibilities for most people to hold to account for their insane proclamations, to whit, please confirm whether you believe the following to be substances that you would readily inject into your own body:

      Ethyl mercury
      Aluminium hydroxide
      Formaldehyde
      Squalene oils
      Polysorbate 80

      These are a miutia of the corrupt substances employed, but I would be interested to hear your attempts at justification.

  152. Amber K December 8, 2010 at 4:29 pm #

    I love how some people think because they don’t understand something that it can’t be understood. Magnets – how do they work?

    • Judge Judy December 8, 2010 at 4:42 pm #

      What are you referring to Amber K?

      • Amber K December 8, 2010 at 4:45 pm #

        The body isn’t magic, Judge Judy. We don’t have all the answers yet but we’re working on it. Just because you’re not doing the work doesn’t mean it isn’t being done.

      • Judge Judy December 8, 2010 at 4:48 pm #

        Didn’t say that healing couldn’t be understood but that it isn’t currently understood. When something is understood then one gets consistent results.

      • Amber K December 8, 2010 at 7:04 pm #

        Yeah, like vaccinations preventing diseases. Consistently. Results.

      • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 2:30 am #

        Amber, stick to the subject dear: we are speaking of the healing of the body, not vaccinations.

  153. Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 5:31 pm #

    Juston Satov

    “While I do agree that GM foods are unfortunate, I also recognize that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to survive off of naturally grown things. Agriculture is not natural, but we need it to feed communities. GM foods are not natural, but it allows us to produce in vastly greater quantities.” This information was given to you by the very same system that has generated such a schism between the living world and that of reductionist science.

    GM foods are a weapon designed to slowly poison the recipients. It has absolutely nothing to do with ensuring food security. As for it being impossible to survive without modern agriculture, it not only is, but it is proven that modern agricultural processes both pollute the land and destroy diversity. Of the discipline I work with, one is Permaculture, a design philosophy that to begin with, does not seek one yield for a given area. When compared to conventional agriculture it produces in the region of four times as much food per unit area and this without any chemical input.

    Go and watch “Bullshit” by Vandana Shiva and discover what this particular corruption has and is doing. It should not be forgotten that Monsanto cut its teeth as a corporation by bringing Agent Orange along with a host of other pernicious and recalcitrant biocides into the world.

    As for whether this is a global conspiracy, well perhaps you should discover the delights of the WTO’s Codex Alimentarius and its present day attempts to destroy natural foods. We have recently seen as the people of Korea held vigil for more than five days and nights, to prevent the entry of Bovine Growth Hormone reared beef into their markets.

    Next I suggest you go and listen to the TED talks given this year by Bill Gates where he openly declares that they might achieve a 15% population reduction by vaccines alone. This is not idle chatter, it is a very real agenda with yet more evidence coming from the Optimum Population Trust.

    The reason for bringing GM foods into the discussion is to illustrate that the FDA is not a trustworthy entity. It is riddled with door swapping individuals from both big pharma and biotech. How else would such an appalling state of affairs exist.

    You are quite right, money is indeed used to corrupt the system, but once this is acknowledged, what has to be identified is exactly who are the paymasters.

    If I along with others are correct about the underlying agenda, and the amount of evidence supporting the same is increasing with each passing day. This thread began with an attack on people using MMS, how odd it is that when the tables are turned, so much name calling ensues. Such matters are not asinine, they call to the root of the problems being faced by literally billions of people. If you are perturbed by the traffic entering your inbox, then may I respectfully suggest you alter its settings.

    Finally, it is true human conflict is to be found throughout history, but interestingly, the conflicts from both recent history and perhaps the passed four hundred years all have a very disturbing theme that runs through them. It is this particular ideology that has become much more exposed thanks to the hard work of many brave researchers and writers, too many of which have been silenced.

  154. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    Judge Judy,
    This is where you fail to understand the issues. There are many diseases for which doctors are not needed, e.g. common colds. Other diseases, illnesses and injuries do need medical attention, e.g. broken bones, infections. Sometimes surgery is needed. The job of doctors, nurses and other health professionals is to provide the means by which healing can occur. In the 19th century, a compound fracture often meant amputation, severe disability and death. With modern medicine, in all its disciplines, this is not the case these days, with the vast majority of such injuries not only survivable but with full recovery. This is just one tiny example.

    • Waterwise December 8, 2010 at 11:32 pm #

      Perhaps you should have researched at more depth into the ways that healers of our ancient path carried with them a great deal more than we have been led to believe. IN may respects we have been for the past two millennia at least, been going through something of a dark age.

      A time when this so called civilli has reigned and decimated those that were here before. They called those ancient tribes savages, yet they and their descendants today, retain the means to heal to a far greater capacity than the western academic indoctrinations has revealed.

      The great inquisition was in many respects an attempt at the removal of indigenous gnosis and within that the plant lore was held by our womenfolk and it was they that were the primary healers and carers.

      I will not deny that we need people who know the intricacies of our physiology, but today, so much of the teachings and practices are led by the philosophies of business and the economics of extinction.

      When we follow the roots of this, we find that certain very powerful influences that co-ordinate the flows of money and resource, we find that doctors and dentists are selected based upon psychometry, more specifically those characteristics that generate similar facets that are deployed in officer positions in warfare. And now this even extends to the inclusion of Malthusian concepts, whereby those diagnosed with Alzheimer’s (a condition inflicted through substances proliferated within food and medicine) are encouraged to end their lives to reduce costs.

      Whilst a bone will mend, many of the medicines do leave a legacy and the entire concept that all medicines will have undesirable effects is in itself an extremely dubious facet that enables so much of the insult to the living being.

    • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 12:30 am #

      As mentioned, I am grateful for advances in surgery in our age. That isn’t the issue here.

  155. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 10:16 pm #

    Ania,
    Instead of talking nonsense, how about providing real, credible, verifiable evidence to substantiate your claims. “Complimentary” and “alternative” medicines remain so because there is no evidence to support them as being effective. What they are effective at is disconnecting the gullible and vulnerable from their money. Homeopathy – see
    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)67177-2/abstract
    and
    http://www.1023.org

    If you can find any real scientific evidence for the efficacy of your “complimentary” therapies, please provide it.

    • Ania December 8, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

      Paul, I find it quite sad that you feel you can personally mock, berate and insult someone like me who has never personally insulted you in these posts – just because they have a different viewpoint to yours.

      I know who I am, what I’m about and don’t feel threatened by those who have different opinions and experiences from mine; I just don’t agree with what is peddled by the pharmicidal killers – and I don’t have to insult people to make my point heard.

      The attitudes I have found here confirm who is closed minded and bigoted in their beliefs, and that there is no respect given nor any understanding (note I don’t say agreement) of those who have a different opinion. Is that really how to treat other people?

      It’s quite shameful to see the lack of respect for those who have a different opinion as have been voiced here – all because we don’t “agree with” the only acceptable option which is to ingest poison and toxins as that will make us well! We will continue to make sure that those around us who need to know, will know that there are and always have been (for thousands of years) other modalities of treatment which support healing and health.

      All I came on this blog to say was that I didn’t agree with the sentiments being expressed here about MMS as they were not based on what I considered to be proper information but rather disinformation, and my own positive use of the product – which you and others on here have found incredibly difficult to accept.

      Lastly, I note that many times you do not answer the questions put to you, which in itself speaks volumes.

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 1:57 am #

      The evidence for the efficacy if many alternative therapies does not need establishing for those that have and do use it. If they bare witness to the results and as I have stated, the system of scientific publications is managed primarily by the political and vested interests, then by adhering to them, it is unlikely that you will encounter evidence.

      Is it because for you, the only truth that you will accept has to come from these austere bodies?

      If so, then perhaps you would like to explain to me, why these bodies continue to promulgate the notion that hydro-silicifluoric acid (fluoride), a known environmental toxin should be dosed at optimum levels into our youngsters.

      Such things reveal the real intent of the established powers.

  156. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 10:25 pm #

    Judge Judy
    The question “Magnets – how do they work?” is a reference to the song (and associated video) “Miracles” by the Insane Clown Posse. Mostly known for their extreme use of foul language and violent terminology, it transpired relatively recently that they are evangelical Christians. The contradictions this throws up are staggering. Even the “Miracles” song is peppered with obscenities. What else it is peppered with is nonsense.

    • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 12:35 am #

      I have no idea what you are talking about Paul: magnets, evangelical Christians and “nonsense.”

      What is starting to make sense is that I was wrong about this blog: I first thought it was about a boy who was fighting a fight he thought just. Now I see it is about a domineering father and the son who wants to please him.

      • Amber K December 9, 2010 at 1:40 am #

        Both you and Waterwise have crossed the line there Judge Judy. Insults tend to fly in discussions like these, whether or not that is appropriate is a matter of debate. Most of us who in engage in them get pretty thick skins after a while. However, having the audacity to express an opinion on Dr. Morgan’s motivations or his relationship with his son is simply not acceptable.

        This is an remarkable boy with great courage and you have no idea what you are talking about. The fact that you think you do after reading a few blog posts speaks to your lack of judgment.

      • Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 2:34 am #

        Amber, if you have any insight other than what is written here on this blog please share it with us for the rest of us only have these posts.

      • Amber K December 9, 2010 at 6:29 am #

        If you’d “do the research” Judge Judy you’d know that Rhys has been awarded with the Grassroots Skepticism award at TAM London this year. Not normal for a teenager. He’s been rather a celebrity in skeptical circles, because it’s unusual for someone so young to have the critical thinking skills necessary to understand when someone is trying to sell them a bill of goods. It’s certainly not taught in school.

        I can only surmise that it is his parent’s guidance that has taught Rhys to be a careful critical thinker. This is not a matter of a son trying to please his “domineering father” it’s a matter of a kid that’s been taught how to use his brain knowing bullshit when he sees it. This is a useful skill, not indoctrination as Waterwise hopes that we’ll believe.

        The point of skepticism and critical thinking is to require evidence for your beliefs and to be able to evaluate evidence. I surmise that you are naturally skeptical, but haven’t learned how to evaluate evidence. Rather than believing in a blanket fashion that the “conventional wisdom” must be wrong, perhaps instead focus on learning to evaluate the veracity of evidence. I think you might change your mind about a lot of things. There must be a threshold of evidence for belief, otherwise it’s just religion. Personal anecdotes do not meet that threshold, for reasons that you would understand if you looked into it. I hope you do.

  157. mms is a scam December 8, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    Maybe it’s time to turn this conversation around and provide some examples of how alternative therapies and practitioners of alternative therapy have harmed or killed people because they convinced their clients that medical treatment was not necessary even though they had no qualifications to make such determinations. I could give thousands of examples — see — whatstheharm.net

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:17 am #

      Now that as a suggestion I think should be included, and obviously aongside it we should compare the fatalities and poisonings from so called conventional medical procedures and drugs.

      I think Justin has rounded this thread off nicely, there are obviously a good deal of individuals that will remain glued to the dominant agenda that I see medicating people to death. Given that my own insights have improved my own health and that my family are well and thriving, I know which way I will walk.

      This thread was initiated against the capacity of freedom to choice and is set in a time when certain medical professionals are calling for mandatory vaccines and others that literally bribe young people to get them to take the impositions.

      I also note that none have answered the question relating to the use of known toxins, a silence which in itself speaks volumes.

      ANd I will close by quoting from Hippocrates

      “Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food”
      This simple statement has served humanity well for tens of thousands of years, if not longer and along with working with the laws of attraction (symbiosis) things can improve.

      Those of you still wilfully blind to the virtues of natural uncorrupted food and the need to avoid allowing your body to be injected with poisons will see over time whhy such a thing has arisen.

      Those of you wanting to assess just a snippet of what little I have achieved in my short season can go on to youtube and type pondman1 into the search bar.

      I have other things to attend to, other matters which for too many of our people present an equal if not greater threat to the vast majority of us.

      I make mention as to potential causality in relation to Paul and Rhys. Sometimes the truth is a painful thing, but to not speak the truth is far worse than to allow such a malicious attack upon people who look after themselves by methods not approved by centralised dogmas is I believe more important now than ever before.

      Few people can deny the epidemics of gastro-intestinal disorders, allergies, diabetes, cancer, etc., etc. The cures in my and many others view are there but sadly ignored by the system and now it seems actually under attack. But this attack is through the use of paper and statistics. Like Einstein, I regard them as worse than lies.

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:18 am #

      Now that as a suggestion I think should be included, and obviously aongside it we should compare the fatalities and poisonings from so called conventional medical procedures and drugs.

      I think Justin has rounded this thread off nicely, there are obviously a good deal of individuals that will remain glued to the dominant agenda that I see medicating people to death. Given that my own insights have improved my own health and that my family are well and thriving, I know which way I will walk.

      This thread was initiated against the capacity of freedom to choice and is set in a time when certain medical professionals are calling for mandatory vaccines and others that literally bribe young people to get them to take the impositions.

      I also note that none have answered the question relating to the use of known toxins, a silence which in itself speaks volumes.

  158. Paul Morgan December 8, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    Waterwise,
    Instead of continuing to post your nonsense conspiracy theories, how about providing us with real, credible evidence to support what you speak of. Also, how about telling us about your “30 years of experience with living systems” and what that actually means.
    Without providing such evidence, I think all your posts show you to be is another example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:18 am #

      And I will close by quoting from Hippocrates

      “Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food”
      This simple statement has served humanity well for tens of thousands of years, if not longer and along with working with the laws of attraction (symbiosis) things can improve.

      Those of you still wilfully blind to the virtues of natural uncorrupted food and the need to avoid allowing your body to be injected with poisons will see over time whhy such a thing has arisen.

      Those of you wanting to assess just a snippet of what little I have achieved in my short season can go on to youtube and type pondman1 into the search bar.

      I have other things to attend to, other matters which for too many of our people present an equal if not greater threat to the vast majority of us.

      I make mention as to potential causality in relation to Paul and Rhys. Sometimes the truth is a painful thing, but to not speak the truth is far worse than to allow such a malicious attack upon people who look after themselves by methods not approved by centralised dogmas is I believe more important now than ever before.

      Few people can deny the epidemics of gastro-intestinal disorders, allergies, diabetes, cancer, etc., etc. The cures in my and many others view are there but sadly ignored by the system and now it seems actually under attack. But this attack is through the use of paper and statistics. Like Einstein, I regard them as worse than lies.

  159. Justin Satov December 9, 2010 at 1:53 am #

    Honestly, all of this debate between both sides is completely and utterly pointless. And it can even be proven sociologically (that is, as far as you’re willing to trust social science).

    As social creatures we tend to collect into groups; it’s a natural drive that directs far more of our actions than many of us are comfortable with, which is why things like peer pressure are so effective. Anyways, when you attack someone else’s point of view, whether diplomatically or aggressively, all it serves to do is strengthen their own beliefs.

    Take national pride for example. Most people (a figure I can’t back up, admittedly) don’t often think too much about how much they love their country. Sometimes they even complain about how it “isn’t what it used to be” or what have you. If someone from another country insults your country, however, suddenly you need to defend it like it’s the only thing you have left to defend.

    So the conspiracy theorists (or “truth seekers” if you would prefer) and MMS-users have their beliefs, and us non-conspiracy theorists have ours. One is HIGHLY unlikely to affect the other. I know this won’t stop anyone from arguing, but I’d just like to put it out there that if you ACTUALLY want to get something done, you have to go beyond arguing on the internet about it, despite how hard it is not to defend yourself.

    Thus I submit my retirement from this blog, as I find it difficult to maintain my sanity amongst some of the people here. Enjoy yourselves and play nice, and always remember this politically incorrect adage: “Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win, you’re still retarded”.

  160. Judge Judy December 9, 2010 at 2:20 am #

    Many of you have kindly submitted links so I thought I’d post one of my own. This one is a bit different however, from the website of one of the most well-written, popular and influential magazines in the English-speaking world. This magazine also has its reputation and billions of dollars of advertising on the line so you can imagine that each fact is checked and checked again. The January 2011 issue:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/01/deadly-medicine-201101

    A quick look for the lazy among us:

    “Prescription drugs kill some 200,000 Americans every year. Will that number go up, now that most clinical trials are conducted overseas—on sick Russians, homeless Poles, and slum-dwelling Chinese—in places where regulation is virtually nonexistent, the F.D.A. doesn’t reach, and “mistakes” can end up in pauper’s graves? The authors investigate the globalization of the pharmaceutical industry, and the U.S. Government’s failure to rein in a lethal profit machine.”

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:27 am #

      Whilst I accept your chastisement for what you regard as crossing the line, you should know that I have lost three of my extended family over the past twelve months, that one of my nieces has just been diagnosed with poly-cistic ovaries after taking Cervarix and a birth control implant, that one of my daughters was forced to take an unnecessary infusion of anti-biotics during labour which caused her newborn to suffer a sever lung infection during her first few days of life and that the paediatrician responsible openly stated that if she had refused to take the infusion during labour, they would have removed her infant. That my mother contracted cancer after taking the seasonal flu vaccine.

      So for me, the lines were crossed long ago and I will do all I can to defend and share what I know to be good for me.

    • mms is a scam December 9, 2010 at 2:44 am #

      Judge Judy — yes, Vanity Fair is one of the best known scientific journals around. WTF. Ho hum.

  161. mms is a scam December 9, 2010 at 2:37 am #

    Justin Satov said “I know this won’t stop anyone from arguing, but I’d just like to put it out there that if you ACTUALLY want to get something done, you have to go beyond arguing on the internet about it, despite how hard it is not to defend yourself.

    Thus I submit my retirement from this blog, as I find it difficult to maintain my sanity amongst some of the people here.”

    Rhys has actually taken this issue off the internet and has had some good results. There is a difference between a belief and scientific fact. It is not just a belief that antibiotics kill bacteria, it is a replicated proven fact. Unfortunately, there are many people arguing about beliefs — people are asking for some scientific proof to show that these beliefs are backed up by some scientific proof. People can believe whatever they want — but in terms of what this blog is all about — their is no credible scientific proof that demonstrates that MMS does anything. It is also true that when you ask for proof, if people don’t have any proof, they resort to personal unfounded insults. Does this sound familiar — Person A: MMS has no effect Person B: yes it does, it has cured 75000 people of malaria. Person A: Please provide some scientific proof regarding this claim, not anecdotal statements. Person B: It’s an FDA conspiracy, they hide the truth. Person A: That’s not proof, can you point me to any studies. Person B: fuck off you idiot, you are a moron etc, etc. How many times has this happened on this blog. It’s too bad these trolls who must be getting clinically obese from all the food they are getting here are driving people away. Well the bottom line is, they can’t provide the proof and they come across as sounding quite demented.

    It’s quite a common occurrence to find people spouting all sorts of conspiracy theory crap on blogs like this, it’s just best to ignore them and then they will move on to somebody elses blog.

    • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 2:47 am #

      The reliance upon “approved publications” is not science. Any more than reading newspapers, or watching the version of news from mainstream media outlets.

      What is known by those of us that as skeptics of the given wisdoms from the likes of the Royal College of Surgeons, is that they advocate poisoning people.

      Funny how this simple fact is persistently ignored.

      As for conspiracy theories, well I will them to those that theorise. I prefer to deal in facts and observe the actions rather than the words of entities, agents and politicians.

      As for truth, as I have stated, people should be free to choose and none should enable such a disgusting regime of control over peoples lives to remain unchallenged.

      • mms is a scam December 9, 2010 at 3:38 am #

        Waterwise — go to the top of the page and read the topic of this blog — it’s about MMS.

        The “disgusting regime” of which you speak has saved my mother from death, my niece from a life of cretism (can nutrition replace a non-existing thyroid gland), my grandfather from cancer … . Your hatred of anything medical comes from personal experience but why are you tainting a blog about MMS, insulting a teenage for stating the obvious and having the guts to say so. The truth may not be the truth as you have stated it. Anything you have to say has become a parody of trollish behaviour. You honestly can’t believe people are going to take you seriously. You are using this blog as a soapbox to promote your own beliefs, yet you can’t provide anything but personal anecdotes. Unfortunately, you can’t see the miracles of medicine — diseases have been wiped off the face of this planet, people have been saved. You might want to look at the number of lives saved. There are two sides to every issue but your cognitive bias is so great, you can’t even see the other side of the issue. Why don’t you go join a forum, rather than a blog, where people believe in your views. The more you argue, the more insane you sound, the more you protest, the more people will not read your posts.

        This is a blog about MMS. IF you want a blog about what you believe in, start your own.

        In other words, PISS OFF.

        Rhys — why don’t you do us all a favour and ban this person, they add nothing to your blog, unless they care to contribute some scientific data and actually address MMS.

        Waterwise — by the way, MMS is more poisonous than most medications on the market. And it is not the whole medical establishments fault about some of the negative outcomes in your family, it’s sad what happened but you are making faulty assumptions about what happened.

        I’m done, I really shouldn’t feed the troll. I will stop now.

      • Rhys Morgan December 9, 2010 at 8:06 am #

        All in good time, my good friend, mms is a scam.
        First, however, I wish to ask Waterwise about his claimed job – 30 years of working with living systems.
        a) Which living systems?
        b) Were you working independently or as part of a company?
        c) How does working for a bathroom company involve working with living systems, unless by that you meant working with people?

      • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 8:56 am #

        Firstly and foremost. I came here to defend the rights of people to choose how they look after themselves and expose the simple facts that your so called conventional medicines are causing more harm (some of which is now well evidenced to be quite deliberate).

        As for MMS, I regard anecdotal evidence with far more respect than you do. Why, because the most powerful recommendations I have ever found, are those handed to me by family, friends and acquaintances. Furthermore having used it and other substances to heal and free myself from dependency on prescribed drugs, I will happily vouch for its safety when used in the correct concentration and measure.

        You have still failed to answer the points raised in relation to the RCS advocation of fluoride! I wonder why.

        I do not hate anyone, but I see the necessity for speaking out against the corporate entities descended from the likes of I.G.Auschwitz (Farben) aka Baxters International, and this especially when I know that population reduction has been both written about and put into action. Go look at the UN population control publications or listen to Gates and the rest of the motley Optimum Population Trust.

        The claim that MMS is harmful and should be banned, in my view emanates from the very same stable of thought that has attacked other substances that have NOT CAUSED HARM, but do not fit into the profiteering from sickness enterprises that destroy so many peoples lives.

        What dis-eases have been wiped off the face of the planet by modern medicine? And more importantly why do western nations like the UK & USA invest so much of our money on biological weapons?! Who is the enemy?

        I am not saying that the entire medical profession are bad or evil, but it is undeniable that they have been misled as to what is of merit and what will harm. More seriously though, some of them have become so heavily brainwashed as to actually administer poisonous substances and tell us that they are good for us. (e.g. Fluoride, ethyl mercury et., etc)

        There are two sides to any debate, but somewhere a singular truth will be found. Those that are trained (brainwashed) into the allopathic reductionist perspective will invariably fail to acknowledge that the origins of medicines come from ancient plant lore handed down for tens of thousands of years that are corrupted by the notion that a single chemical rather than the entire spectrum of phyto chemicals used fresh and alive are far safer and more potent.

        I have insulted no one, but I do challenge the thinking of many and especially a father that has allowed his own son to be medicated with what are obviously harmful sunstances. I wonder, do you know the ingredients and nature of materials used in the vaccines given to infants? They can quite easily cause Crohn’s disease you know. Do you want evidence?

        Next you hurl abusive insult and suggest that I should be banned!

        Perhaps your own emotions are getting the better of you and some one should warn you for tardiness and discourteous rhetoric.

        It is sad about my own family, but even sadder that you do not seem capable of recognising the threats we all face from the multiple insults being inflicted through food, medicine and environmental pollution.

        Rhys (Paul)
        I will quite happily show you some of my work. For example, here is a wetland system I designed about 16years ago. It treats the wastewater from a holiday village with a population equivalent of I think 120. Has only a small recirculating pump in it, no other machinery and has received no maintenance whatsoever and achieved both a >98% treatment compliance and developed into a valued wildlife habitat complete with rare birds. Google Earth Duloe Manor.

        I designed it and assisted in its construction. There are many more of these and the operate from the principle that when we work with nature, rather than against it (probiotic rather than anti) we achieve far higher levels of quality and diversity.

        And Paul, there are more than one Aqueous Designs. I work with water, the elixir of life. Now I must be off to do some work now. Please thin a little about what I have stated. I mean you no harm and have written here with sincerity and truth. I will close by saying that those of you within the medical profession, should actually encourage the development of alternative medicines, study them, try them yourself, you will learn that the vast majority are based upon truly ancient insights. By such means it is my earnest hope, that the schisms between us can be reduced.

      • Waterwise December 9, 2010 at 8:59 am #

        Oh and don’t forget to post your comments relating to the toxic substances listed above. These things really are a danger and should be stopped before attempting to ban MMS. In other words those that live in glass houses, are best advised not to throw stones.

      • Rhys Morgan December 9, 2010 at 11:18 am #

        “RAHRAHRAH BAN WHAT I SAY SHOULD BE BANNED EVEN THOUGH THERE’S NO REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR MY CLAIMS, BEFORE TRYING TO BAN SOMETHING THAT REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE SAYS IS DANGEROUS”
        Also, you work with water – big difference from working with “living systems”, eh?
        Also, this may be hard for your little conspiracy theory filled mind, but I am not my father.
        Finally, may I ask what kind of skeptic you are?

  162. Rhys Morgan December 9, 2010 at 11:37 am #

    If anyone here wishes to continue discussion, please do so at my new blog – http://thewelshboyo.co.uk

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